[Deputy]

Pilotsteve: Something I would add to your to your moral..."If you can, before buying one, check the wear areas for cracks. While YOU may never fire +P ammo, there is no guarantee that the previous owner(s) were so wise".
This is why I am so reluctant to buy any of the guns on Gunbroker. And why I have a couple of online dealers that I KNOW will check these guns for me before I plunk down the cash.

 

[Milspec]

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I'm sorry to have to say this but I believe a used surplus thin slide P38/P1 can have the slide begin cracking at any time. The effect of previous use is cumulative with the slides stretching and becoming weaker with every round fired. Some may fire 5000 rounds with no signs of cracking and some may fail in 500 or less. It depends on how much of the slide's estimated service life had been used before it was sold as surplus and how much has been used since.
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For example, we tracked the service life of cannon tubes based on the Equivelent Full Charge (EFC) rounds fired. Each type of round has it's assigned EFC number. Training rounds have a lower EFC than combat rounds. In P38 terms ten target loads may equal one NATO (EFC) round. One +P+ may be 10 EFC rounds.
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Unless a count is kept of the equivalent full charge rounds fired there's no way to predict when a slide will fail. As it says in most Walther manuals +P will wear out a gun more quickly...but even target loads will eventually wear out a part to it's point of failure. With an early P38/P1 that means the slide will start to crack at the locking lug cutouts.
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Usually one side will begin cracking first then the other side will crack. Eventually one side will crack all the way through and spring out slightly.
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This is based on my experience in Germany back in 1982 - 1983 when the first P38/P1's began to be released for sale. Many slides were cracked and some were cracked all the way through on one side. At the time we received surplus Berlin Police Manurhin P1's which may have remained in use longer than other police and military thin slide versions. The Walthers we fired with our Bundeswehr and BGS counterparts all had upgraded slides and most had hex pin frames.
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In any case I like the early P38/P1's because of their classic appearance and the history of the time. Our war may have been cold but we were on the front lines.

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[Deputy]

It amazes me that folks are still using P38s from WW2 and shooting them a LOT. Even the Russian guns that are thrown together from parts bins seem to work well once they have new springs. And some are late-war jobs that were slapped together rather quickly. I wouldn't shoot ANY of mine a lot, but my Russian capture is gonna be re-conditioned with all new springs. I think that will solve my failure to return to battery and make is as close to 100% reliable as you can with an old geezer from late WW2.
I still can't see why people rave about the double action feature on it. It rivals my 1895 Nagant revolver for having the worst DA trigger pull on Earth.

 

[SgtPppr]

Nice pics and explanation. That's it...I'm getting a 20th century camera. In your 4th pic, the one showing stress points, my P-1 cracked on the forward part of the cutout, the area just opposite of where you have the arrows. Both sides. Since I was a neophyte P-1 buyer...I didn't really inspect it that closely for wear. I didn't know then what I know now! The barrel was pristine, so my guess is that the barrel was replaced and the slide had alot more use than what I have given it. Also, I never mentioned that the slide was matching, so obviously it was the original slide. I shot maybe 300-400 rounds a year for the last three years.

I meant to ask before...has anyone shot the 115 gr. PERFECTA ammo that is out now? I was going to do some research...it must be target loads...it's certainly not +P.

 

[Pilotsteve]

It amazes me that folks are still using P38s from WW2 and shooting them a LOT... I still can't see why people rave about the double action feature on it. It rivals my 1895 Nagant revolver for having the worst DA trigger pull on Earth.

Speak for yourself on the double-action trigger, Dep. Mine is sweet though the P5 is much better. In fact, I'm on my way to the range with my P.38 in a few minutes... steak bake is today and I might be able to give my slide a hundred "stretches" this afternoon! I'm sure we can all hear the concern in my voice, too; I'm not worried about my slide breaking anytime soon. And if it does somehow break, I'll just have it welded.

-Pilotsteve

 

[Milspec]

Nice pics and explanation. ...Also, I never mentioned that the slide was matching, so obviously it was the original slide.

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Probably so but a new replacement slide (like all major component replacements) would be stamped to match the frame serial number.
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[Pilotsteve]

In fact, I'm on my way to the range with my P.38 in a few minutes... to give my slide a hundred "stretches" this afternoon...

And I shall deliver! Here's a video I made of me shooting my P.38 at the range this afternoon. I suppose it's relevant to this discussion because after all, my "thin" post-war slide didn't break after another hundred and fifty shots fired downrange.

I love this pistol. I brought my P5 along today as well and believe it or not, I didn't shoot it once. I spent all of my daily allotment of 9mm on the 1938 design, and enjoyed every steel-ringing shot. I let a few other folks try it as well; none had ever fired a Walther before (except for once guy with a P22); all commented on how gentle the pistol fired and the smoothness of the operation.

-Pilotsteve

 

[MGMike]

.
... I believe a used surplus thin slide P38/P1 can have the slide begin cracking at any time. The effect of previous use is cumulative with the slides stretching and becoming weaker with every round fired. Some may fire 5000 rounds with no signs of cracking and some may fail in 500 or less. It depends on how much of the slide's estimated service life had been used before it was sold as surplus and how much has been used since.
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For example, we tracked the service life of cannon tubes based on the Equivelent Full Charge (EFC) rounds fired. Each type of round has it's assigned EFC number. Training rounds have a lower EFC than combat rounds. In P38 terms ten target loads may equal one NATO (EFC) round. One +P+ may be 10 EFC rounds.

...

This is an interesting theory and it might be true. But I have seen no convincing evidence of it.

My impression is that service life of cannon tubes is a function of bore erosion, not tensile strength. Maybe I am wrong about this, but erosion of the rifling obviously does occur with each round fired, and the bore gets oversize until the tube can no longer be relied on to deliver a shell the prescribed distance. Since artillery must often fire over the heads of friendly troops, a worn tube that fires "short" rounds is unserviceable.

As for the P38: I believe that, taken by itself, "round count" is not meaningful. If the pistol is correctly made and fitted to properly and evenly distribute stress loads, and fired with ammunition that gives pressure and headspace within correct limits, after its parts "settle in" little or no further stretching should occur. In other words, the impact loads from firing will not exceed the elastic strength of the slide for the expected life of the pistol as a whole.

However, that presumes ideal conditions. If the raw material, or the machining or the heat treatment is not quite right, or the locking block is not properly fitted (I think there were 7 sizes, selectively fitted), or the headspace is incorrect, or the ammunition is over-pressured or incorrectly dimensioned, premature failure can be expected.

M

 

[Milspec]

The actual factors are wear, erosion, and cracking. Actually I used the EFC analogy to show that different ammunition puts different amounts of stress on components. Not that slides erode due to heat checking...

The BMI P1 I bought last month came in a nice red Interarms box so it's been in the US for 15 - 30 years. I have no idea what condition the gun was in when it was imported or how many previous owners have fired how many rounds of what type of ammo in it. My P1 was redesigned due to cracking slides. I'm not convinced that it's fully stretched and stable just because it hasn't cracked. Yet.

 

[MGMike]

... My P1 was redesigned due to cracking slides. I'm not convinced that it's fully stretched and stable just because it hasn't cracked. Yet.

Milspec: If it was correctly made and fitted, and has not been used with hot ammo, it hasn't stretched at all. By "settling in", I merely meant that the locking surfaces have seated themselves by compressing against each other. This will initially open the headspace by a tiny amount, after which --when a full bearing has been achieved-- there is very little further upset of the metal. In contrast, slide stretching relates to overstressing the gun. It cannot be correlated to how many rounds have been fired through it, but rather under what conditions those rounds were fired.

My quarrel with analogizing it to cannon barrels that that I don't think it's a valid comparison. A better comparison would be with the cannon's breech ring (i.e., its locking mechanism), which is analogous to the action of a rifle. As we both know, cannon rings and rifle actions often outlive the barrels and are rebarreled many times. While they are inspected for stretch cracks each time, in a correctly made, hardened, and fitted ring or action, it is not expected that stretch cracks will be found.

I have very little experience with artillery, so I am happy to be corrected on this if you think what I have written is wrong.

M

 

[Milspec]

I actually wrote breech ring at first because they are changed based on stretching...about three tubes worth depending on the gun. My point is that rounds aren't necessarily equal and that's all I meant when I mentioned the EFC data.

 

[Deputy]

Good grief...I hope there isn't anyone reading this thread that is thinking of owning a P38. It certainly is demoralizing to read this back and forth banter about how flakey the gun is. Sounds like something you buy, but don't put any ammunition through for fear of breakage. How the heck did Germany get through WW2 without this crap happening???? Oh yeah...steel frames and slides. Perhaps the change to alloy-steel just isn't compatible? Maybe the gun has a different firing impulse with alloy/steel than it does with all-steel? Why are all-steel guns that are slapped together by Russians with parts bin parts being fired and not having the problems the newer alloy guns that are more carefully assembled having?

 

[searcher451]

Many of us own post-war pistols with alloy frames that work just fine, range trip after trip, without a worry. Many of us own post-war pistols without the fat slide and hex bolt additions that function perfectly, range trip after range trip. And at least some of us have finicky WWII-vintage P.38s that hiccup at the range, despite the addition of new springs or a good cleaning or hosed-out mags.

There's nothing wrong with shooting the war-time P.38s, if that's what you want to do. But it's not a necessity for a daily performance guarantee. The post-war pistols work just fine, thank you, even with those alloy frames.

Edit: Some may find these comments to be "blind Walther adoration." I consider them be an accurate reflection of my own experience, one that also represents nicely the experiences of at least some other members who post on this forum.

 

[donp326]

I agree Searcher51, I have carried a post war P-1 with alloy frame and hex pin for self defense for a long time. Not that I don't have pistols with more capacity but I just like the lines so fourth and that nine rounds is enough. That gun has had 1500 rounds I put through it. 120 of them so far on two 60 round FBI rapid fire courses. Not counting the shooting it may have had in the Bundesweir previously. It is still going strong. It is serial 009600
So the only original thing on gun this is the serial number.

So what if 1 out of however many slides out there crack. Why should the knock the use of all those P-38/P-1's out that have not?

 

[Deputy]

After reading this, I wouldn't own an alloy P38 if it was brand new in the box:

"I'm sorry to have to say this but I believe a used surplus thin slide P38/P1 can have the slide begin cracking at any time. The effect of previous use is cumulative with the slides stretching and becoming weaker with every round fired. Some may fire 5000 rounds with no signs of cracking and some may fail in 500 or less. It depends on how much of the slide's estimated service life had been used before it was sold as surplus and how much has been used since."

And the hex guns are either gone or so expensive I might as well buy a steel frame gun.

 

[Milspec]

Since we're quoting here's the post I was replying to. My comment simply expanded on this point:
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Pilotsteve: Something I would add to your to your moral..."If you can, before buying one, check the wear areas for cracks. While YOU may never fire +P ammo, there is no guarantee that the previous owner(s) were so wise"...

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All I've said is there's no way of knowing how many or what type of rounds have been fired through these surplus thin slide P1's. I mentioned this because MGMike pointed out that increased pressure has an exponential effect on wear and I happen to know that different types of ammo produce significantly different pressure curves. We recognize this in the military and use EFC data to produce a standardized round count on weapon systems where it matters.
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Here's my shooter...a '72 P1 Bundeswehr model. Bought it right here on the WaltherForums Trading Post...
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[searcher451]

And the hex guns are either gone or so expensive I might as well buy a steel frame gun.

How much is too much? I bought a brand new, still in the box, never fired fat slide/hex bolt special from Dan's Ammo not too long ago for $399 plus shipping, which was $25, IIRC. The deals are out there if you are patient and watchful. And $400 isn't going to buy you much at all from WWII vintage -- certainly nothing i'd care to shoot.

As to alloy frame pistols, the best piece I own, with or without the Walther name, is the P5. It's the last man standing in my safe; wouldn't trade it, wouldn't sell it, wouldn't be without it. But to each his own. We can kick this topic around indefinitely, and no one's mind is going to be changed.

 

[Pilotsteve]

After a bit of re-thinking, I realize I had it wrong in my previous post showing the points of contact in the slide/locking block interaction. Mike steered me in the right direction, and I think now we can see exactly what's going on when you fire your P.38 in reference to this whole "cracked slide" business.

In the picture below, a red arrows represent the direction of travel of the slide. Inertia is set into motion at the instant of the shot but I erred in the previous observation in that I failed to recognize the actual focus of energy delivery, which is the circular area of the breech face about the firing pin - the contact point at the base of the cartridge. The inertial reaction of forcing the bullet down the barrel under several hundred megapascals of pressure will deliver the casing directly rearward (minus drag from contact with the walls of the chamber) and squarely into the breechface.

As the slide begins to move rearward, it must now pull the barrel/locking block assembly rearward with it because the lugs of the locking block are engaged in the cutouts in the slide. I had it wrong by 180° in my previous post because I erroneously suspected the barrel as being the primary mass causing the rearward inertial push when it is actually the slide. Thus, as the lugs of the locking block are within the cutouts at the moment of the shot, the slide will move rearward in the direction of the red arrows and contact will be made with the lugs at the forward (right-most) surface of the cutout. It can best be observed in this image, in which the red arrows show the direction of slide travel - the point of contact is along the yellow axis:

(Image courtesy King Tanfoglio)

Whatever the case, it seems this is the point where most of the observed cracks have occurred - both at the front and rear axis of the cutouts. I also paid a visit to the point of contact on the frame where the barrel assembly makes contact:

You can clearly observe the shape of the lower rear of the barrel, to include a virtual image of the button that unlocks the locking block from the slide. My frame is missing a bit of anodizing in this area but I assure you, there is zero observable physical damage to the frame. No flowing of metal, no concave curvature, nothing.

-Pilotsteve

 

[153]

Since I was considering shooting my P1, I find this all very interesting.

First all I think it's idiocy to shoot fancy +P hollow points in a P.38, heck even the Man from Uncle was shooting "squib" loads in his special duded up Walther.

With all respect to my friends who love the post war pistols, there must be something to this "weak slide/frame" concept, otherwise the whole fat slide and hex pin stuff would have been invented by +P+ shooting Americans and not the German Army. I didn't think NATO spec ammo was that hot.

So I'd fall on the side of wanting a steel framed shooter. One of the first P.38 pistols I had was a crummy relic with a shot out bore. I spent a few hours with stones and sanding blocks getting off some pits and the heavy machine marks and ended up with a real nice looking "shooter". I traded it off though at some gun show before really shooting it very much.

Even today for a "shooter" I'd like a nice looking pistol. IMO best looking P.38 pistols are the HP and the post war high polish models. Both pretty expensive pistols these days. So if I wanted a P.38 to shoot I'd be inclined to pick up a surplus steel framed pistol and go with that after a good checkout. I would also skip the refinish ... too much work.

So maybe I'll try shooting that P.1 .... next week.

 

[MGMike]

I've never seen any evidence that the German Army invented the fat slide. The Wehrmacht fought all of WWII with the standard slide, and three-quarters of the Bundeswehr guns also had the standard slide. They were not retrofitted with fat slides except at rebuild, and ofttimes a standard spare, or one cannibalized from another gun was substituted. Only about the last 150,000 --out of maybe a couple million--were originally produced with fat slides.

Rather I think (just think, don't know) that the impetus for the fat slide came from the Kraut police, who notoriously used Uber-Fliedermaus Ammo, and indefatigably wrecked their P38s with alarming regularity. (That last part I do know; I saw dozens of examples). Any modification produced by Walther to assuage the cops was of course shared with the Bundeswehr; customarily that obligation is included in a military procurement contract.

Same with the hex lug in the frame. It's not a strength issue, it's a wear issue. The army had tons of spares; it would be the police who would (female dog*) about the expense. However, if the frame and locking block are kept scrupulously clean and well lubricated, and if they are properly fitted (basement DIY builders beware) to start with, the difference is inconsequential.

As far as I am concerned the only real difference between the steel and aluminum frames is weight (and ease of refinishing). Both are adequately strong.

M