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I think I will side with MGMike on the headspacing thing. I doubt very much that the Russian rebuilds are all checked for proper headspace and I haven't seen any problems reported in that area. On a rifle, I would agree. I have headspace gauges for both my 98K rifles and my Russian Mosin Nagant rifles.
I check all of them before taking them to the range. All have passed so far.



 
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Discussion starter · #22 ·
MGMike,

Now that I have my new "fat" slide for my 60 P-1, do you think I should get new
recoil springs as well? I had no problem with them with my original skinny slide that cracked, just wasn't sure if the beefier slide would work as well. Not sure if they are original. I'm sure they must have been replaced at some point, I just don't know when.
 
I would say yes. It can't hurt. Especially if you don't know the round count.



 
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Have you put it all together yet? When you pull the slide back is the pull just a hard as your non fat slide was or lighter. If the springs feel good I would not replace them until I really needed to.
 
In the majority of cases, the cracked slide will be caused by weak springs wearing out the slide over time. Why risk premature wear on your new slide? New springs are not all that expensive. Certainly cheaper than buying another new slide or subjecting your gun to needless battering. You will also ensure things like failing to go completely into battery won't occur.



 
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In the majority of cases, the cracked slide will be caused by weak springs wearing out the slide over time. ...
That is one of those "facts" that is reasonable, logical and indisputable...but wrong.

C'mon Dep, be brave, we need a hero! Tread heavily where no one else has ever dared explore. Read the stickies and FAQs.

M
 
That is one of those "facts" that is reasonable, logical and indisputable...but wrong.

C'mon Dep, be brave, we need a hero! Tread heavily where no one else has ever dared explore. Read the stickies and FAQs.

M
Sorry Mike, but I read it and I don't agree with it. I also go my own way about removing the recoil springs. :)



 
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Okay, fine.

But I suggest to you that in the list of things that might cause a P38/P12 slide to crack at a corner of the locking block recess (which is where 95% of them that crack do), a supposedly "weak" recoil spring is way down at the bottom.

The stress applied to the slide at that location occurs while the barrel and slide are still locked together, before any recoil spring --strong or weak--has compressed more than 1/4 inch. The barrel will be halted a short distance thereafter by the frame, while the slide continues on against the recoil springs until it is halted by the pins nested inside the recoil springs hitting the extreme rear of the frame.

Don't take my word for it. Take it apart and study it for yourself.

M
 
Dep, Mike's words here are almost prophetic. I could actually visualize the mechanism cycling in my mind's eye while reading the above post. He is correct, and it works out physically. Take the slide and barrel off your P.38, and reassemble the barrel into the slide only. Push the locking block up, and work the mechanism.

It'll click. It's brilliant, and I will steadfastly hold to my belief that this system of energy management is superior to the Browning mechanism. I don't like "tilting" barrels for reasons I cannot explain, and will forever covet my P.38 and especially P5 above almost everything else out there today.

-Pilotsteve
 
Dep, Mike's words here are almost prophetic. I could actually visualize the mechanism cycling in my mind's eye while reading the above post. He is correct, and it works out physically. Take the slide and barrel off your P.38, and reassemble the barrel into the slide only. Push the locking block up, and work the mechanism.

It'll click. It's brilliant, and I will steadfastly hold to my belief that this system of energy management is superior to the Browning mechanism. I don't like "tilting" barrels for reasons I cannot explain, and will forever covet my P.38 and especially P5 above almost everything else out there today.

-Pilotsteve
Okay, I will defer to MGMike on the function and slide cracking. But I STILL firmly believe that ALL springs on a used P38 need to be replaced. You simply don't know how much use the gun has had prior to you owning it. Nor what kind of ammo was used in it. I have a WW2 P38 that occasionally fails to return to battery. A replacement of the recoil springs WILL cure that problem.
But I plan on replacing ALL the springs, just to be sure there isn't a weak link ANYWHERE.

And Steve, while you might think the P38 system is magnificent, let me point you to the Beretta M9 Uncle Sammie is using. They are on their FOURTH incarnation of the locking block and are still experiencing problems. And it is basically the same thing as the P38. On the other hand, how many instances have you seen of the Browning Hi-Power or 1911A1 with broken slides similar to the ones seen on the P38? :confused: Uncle Sammie is STILL using WW2 guns when needed. And you don't see any warnings about what ammo shouldn't be used in them, other than corrosive ammo.



 
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I generally let the gun tell me whether the springs need to be replaced. It's not an automatic for me. YMMV, of course.
 
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Discussion starter · #34 ·
Isn't there a way to test the springs? I honestly can't remember which blog and which sticky I read that there was a way. And PilotSteve, I got a chuckle out of your location.
You need to come to sunny Florida....you could put your loaded P-38 in holster in a tupperware container on your front seat and drive around all day legally!
 
...let me point you to the Beretta M9 Uncle Sammie is using. They are on their FOURTH incarnation of the locking block and are still experiencing problems. And it is basically the same thing as the P38.
Already quite familiar with the M9, Dep. I qualified with it in the Air Force and am proficient in its design. It is essentially a modded-up P.38, the design is identical but I strongly prefer the P.38 to the Beretta. I didn't like the grip (too wide), the pistol didn't balance correctly for me and I don't know if it was the fact that it was 40°C (104 °F) that day, but it felt like it got hot quickly. Something about it didn't click with me, and as I've talked about before in another thread, I still think it owes me a pistol ribbon. I got my S.A.E.M. with the AR, but missed out by three shots for the handgun bug.

If the military is still having problems with their Italian pistols' locking blocks, the reason is simple. It's because they're not using P.38's or P5's. I'm going to make a geeky video in a little while to try and illustrate the mechanism, but meanwhile, where's the pictures of the broken slide, SgtPppr? DUDE! C'mon man... you're killing us here!


-Pilotsteve
 
To check springs: First...visually inspect them. They should both be there and look the same. Using dummy rounds (or live rounds on a firing range) put the safety on and then lock a fully loaded magazine into the mag well. Pull the slide all of the way to the rear and then release it. If the round loads properly and the slide closes fully the springs are ok so far. Confirm this by firing.
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Spot on Milspec, but I'd add that I wouldn't use a dummy round. A proper test will only be possible with real ammunition unless the dummy round is high quality. Snap caps shouldn't be utilized for testing proper cycling.

-Pilotsteve
 
Discussion starter · #38 ·
Pilotsteve,

I know...I am so far behind in terms of photography. I'll try to get a friend with a good camera to get some pics. I can't get a good close up. I don't know if it is unusual but my slide cracked on BOTH sides in the same spot...right at the cutouts. I fired about 50-60 115 gr. Winchester and Federal rounds in my 60 P-1 every other month for the last three years. I don't know...is that alot? Doesn't seem like it. As I said, apart from hitting low (front sight too high) she's been fairly accurate when I adjust. I had no problem with the recoil springs with the skinny slide. Can't wait to try it with new slide.
 
Spot on Milspec, but I'd add that I wouldn't use a dummy round. A proper test will only be possible with real ammunition unless the dummy round is high quality. Snap caps shouldn't be utilized for testing proper cycling.

-Pilotsteve
.
Good point. By "dummy round" I mean inert ammunition with empty primer pockets and heavily crimped bullets specifically designed for function testing.
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We used a dummy version of the M882 9mm ball in our Small Arms shop:
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US Cartridge 9mm M917 Dummy, Drilled, & Inert (DDI)
 

Attachments

No problem, 'Pppr. I know how you feel; when I first came around here I didn't have a camera either. Whenever you get around to it, but I understand the situation better now because of your more-detailed description above.

Let's get a little nerdy here and better understand the points of force at play when the P.38 is fired. I just got mine out of the safe and I'll try to illustrate what Mike described in #29 and the physics at play as far as the interaction between the slide and barrel assembly is concerned. When the P.38 is fired, the immediate force is applied directly to the breech face of the slide by the base of the cartridge, followed immediately thereafter by the barrel assembly. As the bullet is forced down the barrel by the propellant gasses, an immediate opposite reaction is applied and forces the barrel in the direction depicted by the red arrow.

Image


At this point, the barrel and slide are locked together by the ears of the locking block and their interaction with the corresponding cutouts in the slide. They travel rearward together approximately 10 mm before the button at the face of the locking block is depressed upon reaching the block in frame, which then lowers the ears and unlocks the barrel from the slide:

Image


Image


The full force of this reaction is applied to the cutouts in the slide in the direction of the red arrows. All of the mass of the slide must now follow this direction until it reaches its mechanical stop at the rear of the frame, and the force is applied as detailed.

Image


This normally would not be an issue were it not for the fact that the slide of the P.38 has a quite a bit of mass located behind this point of force. This mass must be pulled by the rearward-travelling slide, as detailed in blue and creates a potential stress point in the slide where the forces interact.

Image


As discussed earlier, my P.38 has had many thousand bullets down the barrel since I bought it a few years ago, and it was like brand new when I got it. It's still quite pristine and shows zero damage to the slide, frame, or mechanical contact points. I have fired mostly WWB 115 grain range ball, some Magtech, PPU, PMC, and even some of the Russian junk (very little - less than a few magazines worth). I have also fired just about every commonly available personal defensive cartridge as well. Critical Defense, Hydra-Shok, PDX1 etc but never anything silly. If I see a "+" anything on a box on ammunition on the shelf, I pass it by. As you can see, there is no visible wear to the slide of my P.38 at the stress points.

Image


I have a feeling I'm going to be an old man, crusty and grumbly like Mike, before I have to worry about the slide breaking in my P.38. Of course, there is no visible wear to my slide thus far. Visible... what of the crystalline structure of the metal along that stress line? These are things that cannot be seen, and where good metallurgy comes into play. Like any other mechanical device that experiences repetitive flexing, impact and heating/cooling stresses, wear will eventually occur and could lead to failure over a long period of time. I could also win a million dollars, and I could also get struck by a meteorite as well as my slide breaking.

The moral of the story: If you have a vintage P.38 with a "thin" slide like mine, unpinned frame, or are otherwise fearful don't place unnecessarily overpowered ammunition or "hot" handloads into the magazine. Rather, insert economical range ball instead, quit fussing, and enjoy your Walther!

-Pilotsteve
 
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