[1917-1911M]

Do you mean Antifa? 1917

 

[03hemi]

I’m new to guns, but a deadman trigger on a gun is a huge safety issue.

I'm NOT NEW, WHAT'S A "DEADMAN TRIGGER" ?

 

[03hemi]

I’m actually surprised they have not been targeted by the same folks who killed the bump stocks. Pushes the limit of semi auto. All we need is to allow almost machine guns In the hands of the Anita and other organized gang of thugs.

They could just as easy buy legal full autos and use already?

 

[1917-1911M]

I thought a deadman's trigger was where the trigger was wired back with the shooter's thumb holding the hammer cocked....shotgun or rifle usually. Kill him and as the deadman's hand relaxes the hammer drops. Carried a step further the barrel of whatever was wired around the guys neck with the barrel pointed at the back of his head. That's how I get some of my best groups....tie the target to the barrel. 1917

 

[1917-1911M]

The only merit I see in what Crete is asking about is the comment about fewer muscles used to release a trigger. Crete is interested in accuracy and a bit of speedier shooting. As we all know....the speedier the firing the less accurate a shooter is. Up to a point....a guy with a bolt action isn't going to keep up with a semi auto like a .223 AR. Both shooters firing for accuracy. The AR shooter just has much less work to do. It would seem that if hammer fall occurring with the release of the trigger was of significant benefit all target pistols and sniper rifles would already be made this way.....I would certainly have to train with it to become familiar with the technique. 1917

 

[1917-1911M]

I’m actually surprised they have not been targeted by the same folks who killed the bump stocks. Pushes the limit of semi auto. All we need is to allow almost machine guns In the hands of the Anita and other organized gang of thugs.

They probably will be if these become popular and one is used in a horrific shooting. On line you tube videos of AR's being fired with the device installed sound full auto and with one commenter saying you loose almost all accuracy and that he would use semi auto for any serious shooting. Hasn't the US Military gone to three round bursts for the same reason?

Antifa, Antifa (United States) - Wikipedia a lengthy read regarding the history of Antifa, beginning in Germany as a group opposed to Hitler's fascism. From where I sit the use of a semi auto rifle with this device to fire on a crowd would be more likely by a nut such as the guy in Las Vegas. Who does something like that other than a complete nutter? Anyway, this isn't what Crete is asking about and it's a poor army that would be armed with P22s. lol 1917

 

[Wildtoad]

Well yes I did... Good ole spell check and not reading the final before pressing Post Reply...

 

[Wildtoad]

They could just as easy buy legal full autos and use already?

All I know is it is very difficult not to mention expensive to obtain a full auto legally even in the most 2A amendment friendly states. But I wouldn’t want them in the hands of nut jobs either.

 

[1917-1911M]

Nut jobs....yepper, they are out there. binary trigger on an ar - Bing video

Skip to about 18 seconds and tell me how this is going to play with the national media should there be a shooting. I think a bump stock sounds semi auto compared to these. What, these guys made of money? They don't give this ammo away. Leave me out of it. Well, I do have hoards of hogs tearing up the place. Might be useful for taking out a sounder. But hogs are fast...and nervous. 1917

 

[Crete]

The point here is to see if a P22 can compete in a Rapid Fire match. There are professional Olympic-grade .22LR match handguns that can do it. The question is: how can a P22's trigger and mass can achieve a close enough result.

I usually manage 4 out of 5 shots during the 4-seconds string. I always miss the 5th shot as the red light comes on so it is counted as 'out'.

So then, would a binary trigger save me the 5th shot?

Watch what I'm on about here:

 

[1917-1911M]

There is no doubt a properly function binary trigger can speed up firing....but at what cost to accuracy? Have you ever fired any pistol with a binary trigger. I'm still pretty sure I could make simple modifications to achieve this... But then you still have a less than optimal grip angle, less than optimal hammer spring, less than optimal active dampening system and the P22 trigger system was not designed for competition. It is your skills that are keeping you in the hunt. You can easily fire five shots in the alloted time....the question is can you get the pistol back on target quickly enough. You are really up against some tough competition. Kind of like me racing my Subaru STI against Porsche GT3 track cars. That car costs five times as much and is specifically designed for track performance. I was within four seconds of the best lap times for the Porsche....but four seconds per lap behind is huge. I would have needed racing tires, better suspension and another 200 hp to have any hopes of being competitive. When I get a chance I will look into this more...the next time I pull a P22 apart. Right now they are both zeroed in at 100 yds for putting 10 rounds in the same hole. 1917

 

[Redcat94]

I'm NOT NEW, WHAT'S A "DEADMAN TRIGGER" ?

A deadman switch is when a machine requires a button to be pressed and held in order to function.

The safety issue that people have with binary triggers is that once you squeeze the trigger to fire that first round now you have no choice but to fire a second round when you release the trigger. The only way around that is to apply the safety while holding down the trigger (if that particular gun even has a manual safety) or to lock the slide/bolt back.

 

[Crete]

The P22 is easy to decock due to its external hammer. I have never shot a binary trigger so I am not sure it is the correct answer to accurately shooting at limited time intervals. Yet, the time it takes now to reset the trigger in order to squeeze the next shot appears (to me) like ages.

The way I shoot in the 4-seconds string is to align the front and rear sights and wait for the green light and release the first shot without aiming as quickly as I can. Then, I stabilize the P22 while holding the trigger back after firing that first shot and align the sights again; at that point I release the trigger blade for the reset. That is where I wished the second shot happens.

It is the time needed for the second shot, as well as the consecutive remaining four ones, that delay me as I need to do two things after aligning the sights while holding the trigger squeezed:

1) Release the trigger blade in order to reset it
and
2) Squeeze it again for the follow-up shot

Repeating the same routine for the remaining ones wastes precious time as I need fewer milliseconds per shot, not more. Five shots in 4 seconds at five different targets offhand at a distance of 82 feet is doable with the P22 if the reset time is a bit reduced somehow.

If the trigger resetting were an actual shot, then all would be fine and dandy, I reckon.

 

[1917-1911M]

When you figure out how to dampen 95% of your pistol's movement... you should be good to go. Those pistols barely move when firing. That of course leaves you much less work to do getting onto the net target. I'm not sure I'm seeing how a binary trigger is going to help with this. Work out to increase your arm strength, make the P22 heavier to resist movement and keep practicing as you do. The 5" barrel is accurate enough....but those guys just have pistols with every trick designed into them by the best gun engineers that can be found. The fact that you can compete with them using a $225 pistol says more about your skills than the pistol. 1917

 

[1917-1911M]

Crete, have you removed the hammer strut? Doing so allows the trigger to reset in a very short distance. This distance could even be shorter... if even less travel is desired. Have yo installed an overtravel stop. These are very easy to do if you haven't. Degrease the rear of the trigger, place a small blob of JB Weld on the rear of the trigger. You can shape it a bit after it begins to harden. When hardened, file off small amounts until you achieve reliable release of the hammer and no more. Then note where the hammer resets, with no hammer strut, it is about 1/4" forward from full rearward. The slanting bars in the side of the frame and the lower legs of the sear control resetting with no strut. In any event I find having the trigger barely require any movement to be fun and of great benefit. So If you haven't done that you might consider it. You lose DA mode. Everything else is the same. 1917

The top pistol has an overtravel stop but contains the hammer strut, note the distance the trigger has to travel although when in SA a pin across the nose of the hammer strut does pull the trigger rearward a bit. The 5" pistol has had the strut removed so that the trigger resets with very little movement. Shown is the reset trigger in the forward most position. Trigger movement is minimized but does nothing of course to recoil movement of the pistol. Other hand active dampers and an enhanced grip ( as much as possible ) I'm not sure what you can with the P22. Are slide mounted red dots allowed? If so, mine are working well with the combination of JB Weld and Gorilla Glue. I'd probably opt for a bit larger dot for 25M rapid fire. I think the combination of JB Weld and glue would allow target sights to be added if you though that might help.


Other than that it looks like work on an active damper system would be of benefit. Possibly a much lighter slide balanced with recoil spring but you really need engineering expertise for that. I think the sear/hammer hook can be made to work satisfactorily. The pistol just jumps too much compared to the competition. Perhaps top of the line ammo with the least amt of recoil and the pistol adjusted to its use. Is that legal? Can you lighten the weight of target ammo so that there is less blowback pressure? If so, consistent ammo and a tweaked system might cut down on pistol movement. Or you can become the proud owner of a real target pistol. 1917

 

[1917-1911M]

Could I modify a few parts inside of the pistol so that the trigger would reset in 1mm or 2mm....I expect so. This would be measured from where the trigger stops just as it reliably releases the hammer. That would speed up trigger pull but what about the slide. Where is the center of mass? As Daniel told me some yers ago firearms manufacturers try to get as much of this right as they can from the get go. The P22 of course is designed for all manner of shooters and has build in over travel for all parts due to the fact that some pistols will likely get poor maintenance, poor ammo and eventually some wear....all the while the pistol needs to function properly and fail safely.....cracked slides aside.

One pistol has a small bolt as the moving part right behind the chamber....the P22 has a full slide banging around up top. where is its center of mass, while nothing on it precisely fitted. 1917

 

[1917-1911M]

Crete, I don't know if you have ever taken a really close look at how SA works in the P22 but this is how it goes. With a hammer strut installed a small pin in the nose of the strut pulls the trigger bar partially to the rear. This is because the rear leg of the strut is fastened to the hammer and as the hammer is pulled rearward, it pulls the trigger bar/trigger rearward. A good thing...but not the best if you can live with SA only.

If you remove the hammer strut you lose DA and the trigger being pulled rearward with a cocked hammer pulling on the strut as described above. But, this allows you to add a simple pre-travel stop and much further rearward trigger pull wise because the trigger bar will now reset much quicker. When firing in SA, the trigger/trigger bar spring raises the rear of the trigger bar so the two vertical legs will engage the two lower legs of the sear and begin rotating it off the hammer hook. This allows the hammer to fall, the firing pin to be struck, the round fired.

At this point the trigger is all the way rearward and so is the rear of the trigger bar, in fact it has slid under the bottom legs of the sear. It slides under there because the slide knocks the trigger bar down when it hits the trigger bar ears disconnecting it from the sear. The sear is now free to quickly rotate clockwise and catch the hammer as the slide moves forward to chamber the next round.

This leaves up with the two vertical legs at the rear of the trigger bar sitting under the lower legs of the sear. The pistol cannot be fired again unless the trigger bar/trigger resets. If you were to remove the grip, leave the slide and frame together you can observe exactly what goes on. First the slide has to disconnect the rear of the trigger bar from the sear as described above. Next the trigger must be allowed to move forward so the that rear legs of the trigger bar, which are caught and dragging on the underside of the sear legs, can reach a position where they can pop up in front of the sear. At this point the trigger is reset and ready to rotate the sear again. This would be where you would lock forward movement of the trigger for pre-travel stop. Total distance from trigger fully rearward to reset appx 4mm. But this will depend on your particular sear/hammer hook, what work you might have done to it. Obviously the trigger needs to stop reliably but immediately after the sear releases the hammer. Forward movement depends on exactly how are the rear vertical legs have to travel before they can pop back up in front of the sear legs.

Less leverage by the trigger could shorten this considerably. What I mean by that is changing the relationship of the trigger pin to that of the pin for the trigger bar so that less movement of the trigger creates the same amount of trigger bar travel. To exaggerate, let's say the distance from the trigger pivot pin to the trigger bar pin is 1/4". If we change that distance to 1/2" then a whole lot less trigger movement would be required to move the trigger bar, but, at the expense of trigger pull weight which would go up. But, if very minimal trigger travel was necessary it could be done. 1917

 

[Crete]

Yes to all of the above.

I have removed everything but the kitchen sink.

You are correct, the resetting is very short indeed and the result is a P22 w/a dedicated SA action that breaks at 2.4Lbs trigger pull.

The centre of gravity (with the slide half drawn/pulled at the moment of firing) is about 1.9cm from where the trigger breaks the shot. It balances on a finger just ahead of the trigger guard.

I have dampened the recoil with an additional fake compensator, using a muzzle can adaptor, with its hollow space filled with molten lead. A Walther OSP counterweight has been affixed below the fake comps and secured with a bolt.

This P22 weights (unloaded) 2.4Lbs, or the same weight as the trigger pull weight that breaks the shot, spot on the money.

 

[Redcat94]

The point here is to see if a P22 can compete in a Rapid Fire match. There are professional Olympic-grade .22LR match handguns that can do it.

Why not just get a Walther GSP ? It would probably work better than any modified P22.

 

[1917-1911M]

Best idea. Crete I'm not wondering where the balance point is but where the center of the slide's mass is. I bet it is above the bore. I bet some of these other pistols have the center mass of the bolt in direct line with the center line of the bore..perhaps even below it. One thing for sure....those pistols don't move much and I haven't been able to stop the P22 from jumping....even with shade tree contraptions..... 1917