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Discussion Starter #1
I read this recently here: Binary Trigger - Reviewing the Best Way To Legally Simulate Full Auto It goes as follows: "Most triggers are what are usually called “pull triggers.” You pull the trigger and that releases the hammer to hit the firing pin which fires the round. While less common, release triggers do exist. They perform in a similar fashion however they only release the hammer when the trigger is released. You see release triggers in competitive shotguns like in Skeet and Trap. The trigger finger uses fewer muscles to release the trigger than it does to pull it. So when a shotgun shooter is ready to shoot some clays, they preload the trigger by pulling it back. They aim and as soon as they release the trigger forward, the shotgun fires."
I was wondering if the P22 can get a binary trigger (release trigger) job / modification. Would it be safe? An impossible task?
The new Ruger 10/22 Charger pistol has a binary trigger now:
 

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Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't. Obviously some shooters must find an advantage if this type of trigger exists. Crete is a 25M rapid fire shooter. And quite good at it. I would have to train quite a bit to learn this shooting technique. But competition shooters will take any advantage they can get. I'm not sure how you would accomplish this. Not sure how it works on shotguns or the 10/22. Not sure if there is one sear and it is simply operated in the opposite direction. Actually, I've never heard of this. Crete, how about a bit of detail on exactly what happens with this type of trigger. You preload the trigger by pulling it. Preload what? The hammer/striker is released when pressure is let off the trigger. What releases the hammer, is it caught by a sear? I don't understand any of this geometry. Will have to Google primary triggers to get an understanding. One thing for sure....no one makes one for a P22. 1917
 

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Firearms development has often produced bad ideas and the binary trigger is one of the worst.
Total BS, do you have one? Have you ever had one? Let's see yours?
The trigger releases the hammer on the pull and release of the trigger resulting in double taps.
The Binary trigger is one of the coolest triggers ever perfected. If you get the right one (Echo) they run flawlessly.
 

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Total BS, do you have one? Have you ever had one? Let's see yours?
The trigger releases the hammer on the pull and release of the trigger resulting in double taps.
The Binary trigger is one of the coolest triggers ever perfected. If you get the right one (Echo) they run flawlessly.
Why would I have something I think is a terrible idea? Maybe if I decide to try out as an extra in the next John Wick movie.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
A binary trigger may be a game changer for rapid fire strings, like those that require the firing of five shots at 4 seconds or 6 seconds at a target 82 feet away where the x-Ring is smaller than four inches. Here are the folks who first developed this sort of two-step firing during both squeezing and releasing (resetting) the trigger when after each shot, another shot is fired non-stop until the magazine is empty. DIY Upgrade: The BFSIII Franklin Armory Binary Trigger System
 

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I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this. So if I start in SA for example, hammer cocked, held by the sear. Pull the trigger, the trigger bar presses/rotates the sear off the hammer hook. The pistol fires, the slide cycles, the hammer is pressed all the way rearward. At this point the trigger is still rearward and the sear catches the primary. On the P22 the slide disconnects the trigger bar from the sear and releasing the trigger allows it to reset but accomplishes nothing with regard to releasing the hammer while moving forward....of course. So, how to eliminate the possibility of full auto by allowing the sear to catch the hammer while adding something that causes the sear to release the hammer when trigger pressure is released....yet, have the pistol fire and lock again into the existing system.



Here are the fire control parts inside of a P22. In this photo if the trigger were to be pulled the two rear vertical legs would engage the two bottom legs of the sear, rotate it counter clockwise causing the sear face to lift and break from the primary hammer hook. After firing, ramps under the rearward moving slide knock the trigger bar down and off of the sear allowing it to catch the primary hook and hold the hammer cocked. So what you are suggesting is an additional lever that works with the forward movement of the trigger/trigger bar so that the sear is once again rotated off of the hammer hook and once again disconnected so the pistol doesn't go full auto yet still allows the existing trigger bar to work in the conventional manner. As you are aware the hammer strut can be removed which would give more room for additional levers, springs, etc. I'll have to think on this one a few minutes. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Either invent a slightly different hammer strut from scratch or modify (?) the existing one somewhat by – say – adding on it another small-ish spring-actuated moving part that could allow the hammer to fall when the trigger blade is released (as it does now when resetting), but instead of stopping the trigger in the safe position, it will allow it to drop once more (again and again), until the magazine empties and the slide stops moving back and forth.
 

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I don't have quite the correct photo above. We need to be looking at one with the trigger bar at its most rearward position after the slide has knocked it down and disconnected it from the sear (trigger still rearward). It might then be possible to remove the rear section of the hammer strut. I don't even have one in my SA only target pistol. Then take the nose of the strut, position it where the forward moving rear of the trigger bar ( just as you let off the trigger ) engages the nose, pressing it forward. Remove the existing pin (used to pull the trigger rearward in SA) and install a roll pin through the part and through both sides of the frame. We would now have a part that would transfer forward movement of the trigger bar into rearward movement of the modified hammer strut. We need that rearward movement to once again rotate the sear off of the hammer hook as the trigger is released. A pin through the lower legs of the sear might be used so that the modified hammer strut arm has something to press on in order to rotate the sear off the hammer hook as the trigger bar moves forward. With the strut removed in a stock pistol very little movement of the trigger is required for it to reset. Very little movement is required to release one of my modified hammer hooks. Might work......but the last thing I need is something to make me shoot ammo faster. 1917
 

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Here you go Crete. Might work, might not.

93560


The idea here is to somehow use the existing trigger bar in stock SA mode to engage the ssear and release the hammer and then as the trigger is released have the disconnected trigger bar engage the sear again in some manner as it begins to move forward to reset. This will cause the pistol to fire a second time resetting the pistol to DA mode. I've added a pin through the nose of the relocated hammer strut. Blue circle. That pin fits through the side or into the sides of the frame halves and becomes the new pivot point for the part. A hole has been drilled through the lower legs of the sear so that a roll pin (green circle) can be inserted. The rear arm of the hammer strut has been cut at an appropriate length so that as the trigger bar (red dashed line) moves forward it engages the rear side of the previous hammer strut nose. Red arrow into the red block. The trigger bar acts as a stop for the rotating strut. Or, a pin through the trigger bar could control movement of the strut with no additional spring needed.

This causes the top portion of the hammer strut to rotate rearward, engaging the pin installed through the lower legs of the sear where it rotates the sear off the hammer. All that is needed is a small spring looped around the blue pin which keeps the bottom of the hammer strut nose pressed rearward until the forward moving trigger bar presses it forward. Of course the location of the pivot hole for the hammer strut has to be determined, the part fitted so that regular SA works as designed, the trigger resets as the sear releases a second time. A stronger trigger/trigger bar spring might be required. G guitar spring instead of the high E presently used.

The blue arrow shows where the stock trigger bar engages the two lower legs of the sear. There is nothing between the legs of the sear where the stock hammer strut runs which makes it suitable for installing a pin that the strut alone can engage. With this concept there is no DA function. OK, have at it. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I wonder how the disconnected trigger bar will engage the sear again (in some manner), as it begins to move forward to reset, but instead of resetting it will allow the hammer to drop ONLY when the squeezing finger reduces or cuts off the pressure on the trigger blade.

Is the DA converted to a SA firing role?
 

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With the hammer strut removed you have a SA only pistol. All other parts remain as designed and function as designed with exception of DA action for which the hammer strut is essential. Since it is removed, no more DA. DA hammer cocking and release is entirely different from SA release. DA hammer release is between the hammer strut and center section of the rear of the trigger bar. SA release is by rotation of the sear off the hammer hook. The pistol functions fine in SA but the first shot must be SA as well. So you have to cock the hammer prior to firing. The hammer strut has a small roll pin through the nose which pulls the trigger bar/trigger rearward when the pistol is in SA. This function will also be lost. No matter, install a pre-travel and overtravel stop. The trigger/trigger bar needs to actually move a very short distance in SA mode and reset distance is very short as well...perhaps 3/16" total trigger movement. All of this up to this point seems ideal for a target pistol with exception if rules require the pistol to have a DA action.
93565

The pistol above has a JB Weld pre-travel stop and over-travel stop. What is shown is excessive, the trigger does not even have to move this far forward to reset as long as there is no hammer strut. It could have easily been moved 1/16" more rearward. Rearward travel depends on your hammer hook and sear work. Somewhere you have a matched pair; hammer hook modified and sear undercut for a 2 lb trigger. They must be installed together and not mixed with other hammer/sears. But the whole advantage here is minimum movement of the trigger bar. Fully resetting to DA mode requires a lot of trigger bar travel which makes all of this much more complicated clearance wise of internal fire control parts.

The two vertical legs on the rear of the trigger bar engage the two bottom legs of the sear. Rearward movement of the trigger/trigger bar rotates the sear off the hammer hook. When the ramps under the slide hit the trigger bar ears as the slide flys rearward the trigger bar is simply knocked downward and off of the sear allowing it to catch the cocked hammer. None of that changes with the hammer strut removed.

So assume we now have a cocked hammer and that the trigger is still fully rearward. What happens as we let the trigger/trigger bar forward. In a very short distance, 3/16" appx. the rear of the trigger bar clears the bottom legs of the sear, pop up in front of it and are in position to once again rotate the sear if the trigger is pulled. This will not happen if the hammer strut is installed, the trigger has to move much further forward for the DA/SA mode to reset.

What we need to figure out is how to fashion some type of lever that converts the forward moving trigger bar, after a shot has been fired, hammer cocked, sear engaged, trigger bar disconnected, into a rearward movement that quickly engages the sear, rotates it to release the hammer again which recycles the pistol but this time back into the conventional SA mode, trigger forward. This is the system you are asking about...binary trigger.

In order for this to function the forward moving trigger bar must have enough spring, it must engage some pivoting lever ( modified hammer strut nose), must pivot it quickly and cause the upper portion to release the sear, and not be in the way of hammer/sear movement as the pistol cycles again to the SA mode. Two shots fired, trigger now forward and ready for a conventional SA shot. Very little movement of the trigger bar seems essential to a simple design. Of course if you want a complex design retaining DA/SA capability an entirely different system will have to be designed. And that will be difficult in this small pistol. Somehow when all it said and done something needs to convert the forward motion of the released trigger into a rearward movement against the bottom of the sear to cause it to release the hammer a second time while the trigger is being let forward. 1917
 

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Perhaps a refresher on how the P22 fire control parts work is in order.
Due to the trigger/trigger bar geometry...pulling the trigger causes the trigger bar to move rearward...not forward.
In DA mode, trigger all the way forward the trigger bar sits at its lowest position.
In this low position the bar will neither engage the hammer strut for DA hammer release or the sear for SA release.
On top of the trigger bar it is a spring loaded magazine safety that insures the weaker trigger spring will not raise the trigger bar unless a magazine is fully inserted which simple presses the part up and away from the trigger bar.
The trigger bar is now free to rise due to the small trigger/trigger bar spring.

It is essential that the rear of the trigger bar rise or it will not be able to engage the hammer strut or sear.
Hammer down, magazine installed and pulling the trigger causes the rear of the trigger bar to rise and engage a notch in the arm of the hammer strut. DA mode.
Continued pulling of the trigger rotates the hammer more and more rearward.
So what releases the hammer in DA mode. It isn't the sear, the sear is never engaged in DA.
At this point the rear of the trigger bar is still engaged with the notch in the hammer strut.
However something is happening and that something is that the outer rear shoulders of the trigger bar are engaging two downward slanting steel pins fitted into the frame halves.

Continued DA pull causes the rear of the trigger bar to slide more and more downward until the trigger bar slips out of the notch on the hammer strut.
At this point the hammer falls, the pistol fires and the slide cycles.
The trigger is all the way rearward, the trigger bar is under the sear and disconnected from the hammer strut.
Releasing the trigger causes the trigger bar to move forward, still under trigger bar spring upward pressure until it moves forward enough for the rear vertical legs on the trigger bar can pop up in front of the now activated sear which is holding the hammer cocked.

At this point a pin through the nose of the hammer strut holds the trigger bar from further forward movement and hold the trigger rearward as a nice feature since the trigger has to move a much shorter distance to release the hammer in SA mode.
So what happens in SA?
The hammer is cocked, the real sear has caught it at the primary hook and is waiting for the two vertical legs on the rear of the trigger bar to disengage it.
Again, the trigger bar must be up, ready to engage the sear.
Pulling the trigger moves the raised trigger bar rearward but this time the hammer strut plays no part. The two vertical legs on the rear of the trigger bar engage the bottom legs of the sear, rotate it counter clockwise until the hammer is released.
At this point the trigger bar has rotated the sear out of the way of the hammer hooks, the hammer falls, firing pin struck, cartridge fires and the slide cycles chambering a new round and pressing the hammer fully rearward.
In order to keep the pistol from firing full auto....something needs to disconnect the trigger bar which is still holding the sear out of the way of the hammer hooks.
That job is assigned to two ramps under the slide that engage the two ears located on top of the trigger bar. The ramps simply hit the ears as the slide moves rearward and physically knocks the trigger bar down, disengaging ti from the sear which is now allowed to quickly rotate back into position to catch the hammer holding it in a cocked position.

Once again, the trigger bar is held rearward, trigger rearward for the next SA shot. And that is how it works. If the trigger spring ever gets weak, it can have not enough strength to raise the trigger bar for DA or SA function and might not cause the trigger bar to stay engaged with the sear in SA which can allow the sear to catch the falling hammer at the secondary notch (half cock). So all of these parts have to work as designed and be up to snuff spec wise.

If you remove the hammer strut all you are doing is removing DA pull/rotating of the hammer rearward via the strut. SA is not affected except that the pin is no longer there to pull the trigger rearward...hence the pre-travel stop is useful. There is no longer any reason for the trigger to move fully forward. Reset distance is minimal. 1917
 

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I wonder how the disconnected trigger bar will engage the sear again (in some manner), as it begins to move forward to reset, but instead of resetting it will allow the hammer to drop ONLY when the squeezing finger reduces or cuts off the pressure on the trigger blade.

Is the DA converted to a SA firing role?
Yes DA only. To make the forward moving trigger bar (finger releasing the pulled trigger) we need something that the trigger bar engages, pivots, so that the portion being pivoted engages the sear legs pressing them rearward to release the hammer. Whatever that part is need to only work when the trigger is being released and needs to stay out of the way of other moving parts when firing and cycling. Instead of a pin through the lower legs of the sear a pin through the shortened strut leg could also engage the sear legs if the trigger bar rotates it. How this would work is very simple. How to actually place all the parts correctly and make sure everything does not interfere with other parts is the trick. Somewhere I did a thread on how all of the parts work, labeled them, DA vs SA but the photos might have been tossed by pbucket. I still have the photos though. I would have to pull a pistol apart, assemble all of the fire control parts on the right side frame. Have previously determined how far the trigger moves, etc. as might be limited by the grips so that I would have a good idea of exactly where this pivot part needs to be located in order to engage the sear when the trigger is released giving you the binary trigger. The center of the trigger bar is free to be used as well as long as it not a portion where the magazine slides through. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I already have the matched pair, provided by a dear friend, with the hammer hook modified and the sear undercut for a 2 lb trigger already installed in my P22 and the trigger weight is a consistent 1Kg with a clean break. Perfect for Standard Pistol (SP) and Rapid Fire (RF) competition.

I manage ten shots out of 20 in the X-Ring during the 150 seconds precision string [offhand at 82 feet/25m], with good ammo. The 20 seconds string is fine too. The issue rests in the 10 seconds SP or when shooting RF. That's where I look into all possibilities that might aid in shooting the P22 accurately during even the 6 and 4 seconds strings in RF. The Standard Pistol target's X-Ring is 2-iches in dia., while the Rapid Fire target's X-Ring is 4-inches in dia.

I am not sure if a binary trigger will definitively help me as I cannot say what will happen the moment the trigger is released for the follow-up shot by un-squeezing the trigger blade. Accuracy may be lost, or the point of impact may change during this "squeeze" and "release" trigger function. It may be counterproductive. I couldn't know if I didn't try, right?
 

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I agree with the above. I think you will definitely have to train with this new system especially after you have fired a million shots during practice and competition with a standard trigger. There might be something to less muscle movement in releasing the trigger but this seems like it will certainly require some familiarization with the process. Why not a trigger that drops the hammer on release only? Watching these guys fire AR style rifles with a binary trigger seems like a lot of foolishness to me. You can't hit much at a distance in full auto even with a .223. When was the last time you saw a sniper suing such a device?

Experienced gun design engineers can probably design anything and certain triggers lend themselves to a binary sear release better than others. On the P22 the trigger is not in close proximity to the sear and I cannot imagine any modification to the trigger that will give you a binary trigger. This work will have to be done in the vicinity of the rear of the trigger bar. The trigger is up front, the magazine fills the space between the trigger and the sear. A simple lever of some type powered by the forward moving trigger bar as the trigger is released seems the simplest concept. What we need is a lever activated by the trigger bar that transfers the forward movement into a rearward movement by pivoting a lever against the sear after the stock sear has done its job.

That is what my concept shows. A lever ( part of the existing hammer strut) that will be engaged by the forward moving trigger bar which will press the lower arm forward which will then pivot the upper portion against the sear. I cannot see anything simpler at this point. Does the resetting trigger have enough strength to power a second release lever? I don't know. The parts I used previously don't exactly show the proper relationship between the parts but all you need is a lever that pivots as the trigger bar engages the lower portion which causes the top portion to rotate rearward and engage the sear. This is the trick, something to use the forward moving trigger bar to pivot an arm against the sear for that second release while allowing these new part not to interfere with SA movement/function. I think it can be done but the first thing will be to disassemble a pistol, place the fire control part on the right side of the frame half. Then take careful measurements of exactly how the stock pistol works, specifically where the trigger bar ends rearward movement, exactly where it resets all so that you determine where to locate a pivoting second arm to engage the sear. Leverage will have to be considered and the part will need to be designed/located so that it does not bind in any way with fast moving parts. Which is why I think this will have to be done near the sear and near the rearward end of the trigger bar. Unfortunately out of all my photos I never took a shot showing much that illustrates this. And remember, SA or DA the slanting pins control the location height wise of the trigger bar hammer strut or not. A clear understanding of how P22 fire control components work is essential. You can see all of this fortunately with the parts installed on the right side of the frame half, slide off, grip off, left frame half off. You can't do that with many pistols. Perhaps I can draw this but a photo would be better and I really need to document exactly where the trigger bar stops, height, etc. in order to precisely locate a pivot piece. 1917
 

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I'm pretty sure I can design a binary trigger for the P22 but it won't be a drop in part. Making it work as you release the trigger could use the rear of the trigger bar would pivot a lever that engages the sear and rotates it off the hammer....but, the new part has to disconnect from the sear in some manner as well. A bit tricky.
 

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I’m actually surprised they have not been targeted by the same folks who killed the bump stocks. Pushes the limit of semi auto. All we need is to allow almost machine guns In the hands of the Anita and other organized gang of thugs.
 
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