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I still have those movies of various contraptions strapped onto the end of the pistol. They worked up to a point but I never could get down to GSP steadiness. Remember the drawings I did of alligator snapper damper jaws, adjustable damper front to rear, 220 mm sight distance, adjustable vertical dampers.....and then I built it and strapped in onto the end of an old P22. I did work considerably well but I got shot at when I pulled it out the bag at the range. Don't know how to upload videos here. 1917
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93740

Then there were movies of this. No damper installed and how high the muzzle recoiled.



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Then at rest with some type of homemade damper....
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Recoil lift at the muzzle was what....1/4", pretty good improvement.


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Then the alligator snapper. Looks like it moved up 3/8". Even strapped a full 1 gal bucket of paint on the muzzle and rested the nose of the grip on a board. The muzzle didn't rise at all....but the grips sure kicked down. It's hard to beat mother physics. Then PilkGuns broke my slide on the first shot....hahaha, is their any wonder. They sent me a new one. I put that gun through everything but it is still my now very accurate 5" model with the FDE slide and red dot. These guns are just too much fun. I need a go fund me machine shop....then I could make some stuff. 1917

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If you move the above movies frame to frame you can see the dampers actually working. Well, moving at least. The jaw goes down before the muzzle ever begins to lift. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter #44 (Edited)
The GSP is fine and dandy but it is not for me. I have shot every GSP available locally, including the original one with the reverse (upside down) trigger blade [pictured below], all the way to the latest Expert version.

If I get a match pistol it will be this one: SE ShootingEquipment | Match-Guns MG2E .22lr electronic rapid-fire pistol | purchase online

In the meantime i am having fun with my P22 that beats every GSP at the range, on a regular basis. No expensive handgun can give such joy.
 

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You should just get a Ruger 1022.....they shoot really fast. I can understand the fun of competing and winning with a P22 but what is it you don't like about the variations of GSP and others if I might ask? That is one fancy looking shooting iron, the MG2E. What is needs an electric charge that hits your finger right when the sights align with the bullseye. Nice little shock would flick your shooting finger. I have an electric fence around the garden that will make your entire body jump. 1917
 

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A deadman switch is when a machine requires a button to be pressed and held in order to function.

The safety issue that people have with binary triggers is that once you squeeze the trigger to fire that first round now you have no choice but to fire a second round when you release the trigger. The only way around that is to apply the safety while holding down the trigger (if that particular gun even has a manual safety) or to lock the slide/bolt back.
Not with the Fostech or their competitor. When you pull the trigger in binary mode and then decide you don't want the other round to go off upon release, simply rotate the selector switch to either safety or semi and then you can release the trigger and it won't go off.
Some of the "cheap" one's are binary only and no switch between the three modes, safe and binary only, but that's why they're so cheap.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
The .22 GSP is heavy for me and jams quite a bit with Standard Vel and soft SK Standard Plus, even ELEY Tenex fails to cycle it. The GSPs I shot needed a lighter slide and the factory grip is rubbish. Only a custom grip may improve it. The trigger has creep and was made for the centerfire version, not the .22 LR in mind.

The .32 S&W L version is actually better than the rimfire and perhaps it is the top Match Walther handgun ever made, but I don't shoot centerfire, so there we are.

The electronic trigger SSP-E is also a good choice for RF but the MG is a lot simpler and a bit cheaper as well than the SSP-E.

The E triggers are marvelous and not gimmicky at all. I have shot the Pardini RF with the E trigger, before it was discontinued, and I was smitten. If the mechanical SSP is shot next to an E triggered one the scores fly sky-high.

A mechanical trigger can't hold a candle to an E for love or money.
 

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Sounds like we need to be working on an electric trigger for the P22. How does an electric trigger work? Small solenoid that trips the sear or that has a firing pin connected directly to it? Or some other method. I've never shot a firearm with an electric trigger. 1917
 

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These appear to be electric solenoids with the trigger as the switch. I'm having a hard time seeing the advantage over a good trigger. In the P22 if you were to be able to fit such you could have the solenoid tap the sear to release the hammer, retract and have a second firing of the solenoid (with on/off switch) for a binary trigger. The retracting solenoid arm would allow resetting of the sear. However, the trigger is a long way from the sear on the P22 and the magazine sits between the two. There is minimal room inside of the pistol for electronics in front of or behind the magazine. For a binary function the the solenoid could act to kick the trigger bar rearward, then as it resets kick it again for binary function and reset for the second pull of the trigger. I suppose the electronics/battery could be mounted under the front rail, wires to the solenoid. The trigger bar could be eliminated if a design for the solenoid could be determined where it would operate the sear while allowing resetting. Disconnecting would be via the solenoid retracting off the sear to allow it to reset. 1917

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Solenoid is red, glued in place. Plunger is blue....resets after firing to allow the sear to reset. Remove strut, remove trigger bar. Green is the contact for the trigger to energize the solenoid. Yellow wires from battery pack and electronic pod under the rail. With proper electronics the plunger could be made to fire pulling the trigger and releasing it. Binary. The sear contains its existing spring and resets automatically as the plunger retracts and the hammer rotates rearward. The lower legs of the sear could be thinned to allow more room for the solenoid.

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Think very small for that solenoid......powerful enough????
 

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I have no idea how the electronics work. I'm sure some people do. It would be pretty easy to separate the frame halves, insert a magazine, place the sear in the hammer hook and then measure the amount of room you have for the solenoid/plunger. You can see how far the sear needs to move...appx. 0.020" on mine. Since the sear basically rotates straight up the solenoid could be placed to at the bottom, facing up. Would this be an improvement over a good trigger.....I have no idea. 1917
 

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The solenoid needs to hold the sear rotated up long enough for the second notch to clear the sear then allow it to lower so the sear catches the cocked hammer. The trigger bar does this by holding the sear rotated out of the way until the slide hits the ears and disconnects it from the sear. The secondary notch could be eliminated since it no longer would be required to hold the hammer strut. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter #53 (Edited)
Two questions:

1. Is it possible to replace the hammer spring (do away with it completely), with an equally strong electromagnet (solenoid) in its place that would allow the hammer to remain cocked between shots?

&

2. Is the safety half-notch [pictured below], in the way or it could be used somehow without relying on the hammer spring but using the powerful solenoid to accomplish the firing of each shot?

I'm told that modern cars also use the starter solenoid to move the starter pinion into engagement with the ring gear of the engine but with 12V power, which is probably not practical here.

o_O
 

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Yes automobile starters have used a solenoid to temporarily engage the starter gear for 80 years or more. It simply slides the gear on the electric motor shaft until it engages the crank ring on the flywheel. Letting the ignition key rotate off the start position allows a spring to disengage the starter gear from the crank ring. When you have a weak battery that clicking sound you hear is the solenoid trying to engage but not doing so due to not enough electrical current to fully engage it. A sure sign of an almost dead battery.

I suppose anything is possible if you have a purpose built pistol. Quite another if you are trying to retrofit a small pistol. Remove the mainspring? How are you going to power the hammer? You might be able to pin a solenoid plunger to the bottom of the hammer so that when retracted the hammer is rotated rearward. Firing the solenoid plunger would then rotate the hammer forward, the slide would press it rearward and the solenoid would hold it there until retripped electrically. Very small parts...not sure how tough a tiny solenoid is. I think it would be much better on the P22 to leave the existing hammer, hammer spring and sear mostly alone and simply consider using the solenoid to trip the sear. Hammer pressed rearward by the slide and caught by the sear in SA electric.

But, why even have a hammer. How about a plunger that acts directly on the firing pin. Placed so that the plunger drives the firing pin forward. The solenoid could be placed behind the firing pin which would cause a change to the rear of the breech block and the elimination of the sear and hammer. An on/off electrical switch would be the safety.

Why not make the plunger the firing pin, as it snaps forward the plunger hits the rim of the cartridge. You will need something strong enough to handle the blowback impact of the spent case...say, 1/2" of breech block. The solenoid would sit similar to a striker but with the plunger driving a short firing pin into the rim. I'm not sure a solenoid could take repeated blowback impacts. Of course a slide mounted solenoid means it will move with each shot so connecting wires will have to accommodate this.

The purpose of the half cock notch is not for half cock. On the P22 it is used for the location of the small rear pin that secures the hammer strut which can be removed entirely. Next and more importantly the second hook is designed to catch a falling hammer should it slip off the primary hook for whatever the reason; wear, damage, poor trigger/sear work, dropping the pistol, etc. I think in a purpose modified pistol that no one else is allowed to fire it could be removed. The purpose of removing it when a solenoid is used to to pivot the sear would be to allow the plunger to quickly reset, the sear reset without the possibility of the second notch catching the hammer. It just makes the operation simpler. The stock pistol overcomes this by having the trigger bar rotate the sear off the hammer and holds it out of the way of both hooks until the slide knocks it down, disengaging it from the sear. This is carefully timed. A solenoid on the other hand has no such knock down capability. So, a solenoid would have to hit the sear, rotate it to release the hammer and (hold the sear rotated out of the way of the secondary hook momentarily) until the hammer had hit the firing pin. Or on the P22...since you no longer need the second hook for securing the hammer strut, you could simply remove the secondary hook. This removes one of the safety features....so, don't share the pistol especially with inexperienced shooters. .

Small solenoids are probably plenty powerful enough to disengage the sear. Power the hammer????? I don't know. Electro magnet, I don't know. But you have to be careful as pretty soon you are looking at a total redesign of the pistol. The trick would be to what can you do to the stock pistol and keep costs down. The simplest seems to be to have a small solenoid hit the lower legs of the stock sear. To do this mount the circuit board and battery under the front rail. The switch for powering the solenoid would be at the trigger. The energized solenoid simply pops out the plunger where it hits the lower legs of the sear rotating it off the hammer. Gone is the trigger bar, the hammer strut and secondary notch. The trigger spring would be modified to very lightly but reliably hold the trigger forward and away from the electric contact point. Very, very little movement of the trigger would be required. Movement of the sear from release to catch looks to be within the limits of a small solenoid.

But could the P22 be entirely modified....? Yes, they call that another pistol already manufactured and 20x the price of a P22. So the trick is how to put an electric switch in a $225 pistol. To me that would mean work as much as possible with stock parts.

Unfortunately my photos above were not taken with the purpose of illustrating these concepts so you have to use your imagination. 1917
 

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93798


The way this would work would be to remove the hammer strut, remove the trigger bar and then install a small solenoid inside the frame halves and aim the plunger toward a modified sear ( if necessary). The red is the body of the solenoid, wires would run from it to the battery/circuit board with the trigger closing the circuit. The blue plunger would pop out when the trigger is pulled, that would rotate the sear, the hammer would fall, the plunger would retract and the sear would catch the hammer in the primary notch. I have removed the half cock notch due to not knowing if the plunger could be made to hold the sear out of the way of the falling hammer long enough to avoid it. I suppose the electronic board mounted under the front rails could have an on/off switch for the whole thing. This is the simplest concept I can come up with utilizing stock parts. Having the solenoid cock/release the hammer or suck it forward with magnetic pull is a whole nother barrel of worms. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter #56
While reading this quite interesting missive, I couldn't help thinking about the trigger pull weight that cannot be lighter than 1.0 kilogram or ~2.0 LBs as that could disqualify the P22 from competing in sanctioned Standard Pistol or Bullseye or Rapid Fire matches where that limit is written in stone.
 

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Well I'm sure a spring can be devised or something electronic with the switch so that 1.0 kg of trigger pull is required to engage the switch that fires the solenoid. So how do the electric trigger pistols work? I still don't know but the earlier photos show a solenoid with plunger . Don't the electric pistols have adjustable triggers weights. My question would be does the trigger itself acting through some mechanical device have to trip the sear at 1 kg? Or, can a 1 kg pull legally cause a separate part energized by electricity to trip the sear?1917
 

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Discussion Starter #58 (Edited)
"The main advantage of an e-trigger is that there is no mechanical connection between the trigger and the sear and firing pin system. The trigger is simply a switch that delivers a charge to a solenoid that operated the firing pin release."

I found this online: https://frontierarms.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Walther-SSP-E-GA-review.pdf

Elsewhere, I came up with this (screenshot below) info: "The SSP does not have a hammer that falls! The firing pin is hooked up as the pistol cycle and released by trigger pull."

Also: The trigger can be set as a two-stage (Standard Pistol matches) or single stage (Rapid Fire matches). Mod. SSP-E
 

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What I get out of the above regarding the legality of the pistol is that it is legal, the trigger is adjustable for 1 kg pull and the firing pin is either part of or impacted by the solenoid. There is no hammer. Like I say, with a purpose built pistol from scratch...you can do anything. There is no explanation (diagram) of how the plunger/firing pin sits or works. There is no explanation of how trigger pull adjustment is made. What is clear is that the trigger simply acts as a contact switch completing the circuit so that the solenoid will activate.

This is exactly what I am suggesting for the P22. The solenoid portion though will activate the sear which will release the hammer. The mainspring along with the mass of the hammer is what is required to move the inertia driven firing pin forward and yes you probably get some movement in the pistol as the mass of the hammer moves. I see no way to eliminate this.

How the adjustable trigger pull is achieved is not explained either. I can think of a dozen ways but again, if we are simply trying to add an electric trigger to the P22 we need to devise a simple system that fits within the existing pistol with minimal modification. In essence the trigger has become nothing more than a common toggle light switch. Now, how to make it adjustable. Obviously we need to trigger to reset forward regardless of the distance required. A spring. Next we need to be able to either make the trigger pull adjustable or install a spring in some manner that requires 1 kg of pull before the trigger/switch makes contact. Moving the pivot point to give more or less leverage would work but will likely be hard to design in the amt amount of space allowed. So, how about a small spring that acts against the pull direction of the hammer. This spring could be adjustable with something like a small Allen screw. It could be installed through the trigger much as an overtravel screw works. With an electronic trigger.....the position of the trigger at release is no longer important. For example, the pistol could be set up with the trigger in the fully forward position with total movement of 1 to 2 mm. It is only moving the distance required to touch the contact and complete the electrical circuit. There is no need for the trigger to operate from a rearward position at all. The trick would be to devise some manner of adjustable, consistent trigger pull. How this is accomplished in the SSP-E is not explained. The easiest method in the P22 seems to be either by a small compression spring that is adjustable or a small pull coil spring with one end being adjustable. The compression spring could be behind the trigger. The pull spring would need to be inside the pistol. The trigger bar could even be used although it would be modified to no longer engage the sear....the rear of it might simply be where adjustment is made.....although I would like to remove the part entirely.

A portion of the stock trigger spring is exposed behind the trigger. If you were to insert something under the legs like a toothpick you will increase the amount of pull required to pull the trigger. How about a similar set up but with a stronger spring and a small threaded rod affixed to the trigger that adjusts the amount of trigger pull required to move the trigger rearward. These are the simple kind of things I think could possible be done to the P22. A complete redesign is out of the question as far as I'm concerned.

To eliminate the hammer and sear....yes, I think that could be done but is a bit more tricky. Here you would remove the hammer and sear. You would install a lever, the bottom of which would be engaged by the solenoid. In the center would be a pivot pin. The top portion would penetrate into the breech block in a manner so that when the plunger drives the bottom of the pivot arm rearward, the top portion pivots forward....driving the firing pin into the rim. The firing pin spring would reset the firing pin as the plunger retracts on the solenoid. This has to be carefully engineered so that the rearward moving breech/slide can clear the pivot arm without damage to it or the solenoid. Like I say....a bit more tricky. Could a small solenoid be mounted in a modified P22 breech block to drive the firing pin straight forward, cycle with the slide and hold up....I don't know but it seems this might be one of the ways the SSP-E works.

Start from scratch on a purpose built pistol design with skilled engineers is one thing...converting a P22, quite another. 1917
 
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