[balance]

Is there a chance the dangerous nature of this trigger is overstated?

There is a chance, in the same way there is a chance that the danger is understated.

Why would Walther Germany sell this trigger in Europe if it's truly death waiting to happen?

I don't know. But if what was stated in post #54 on this thread is correct, that trigger shouldn't be sold anywhere.

Still, I'd like to see some test results.

I don't believe anyone would buy this trigger for purely academic reasons. If someone buys one of these, it is probably to install it and use it in a pistol.

The member here who purchased the trigger from Earl has already stated that he does not wish to do drop testing because of damage to the finish of the pistol. This proves my point.

 

[chandler5566]

You think I could simulate the drop test with a mallet? Don’t wanna ruin the finish on what is just a range pistol to me.

Due to a video that was passed around showing the PPQ releasing the striker after a blow with a mallet and a drop test of 18" I decided to test my PPQ 45 in the same manner. Neither test resulted in the release of the striker or damage of any kind.

 

[scootertramp]

I've modified my trigger with a set screw so it's adjustable for blade safety contact with frame from full contact, minimal contact, or none at all. From what height do I need to drop my pistol to see if it fires? Also, is muzzle up when dropped the most likely for the striker to release? How many times do I need to drop it - assuming it does not fire - for the test to be somewhat valid?

 

[balance]

I've modified my trigger with a set screw so it's adjustable for blade safety contact with frame from full contact, minimal contact, or none at all.

Is the set screw on the trigger?

Take a picture of your setup.

From what height do I need to drop my pistol to see if it fires?

From whatever height it would take to move the trigger far enough to the rear to lift the firing pin block.

Also, is muzzle up when dropped the most likely for the striker to release?

The drop safety on the trigger is only there for a drop or impact where the trigger and trigger bar could move to the rear due to an impact. The only type of drop that should cause this is a drop with the muzzle pointing somewhere in the upward direction.

Without a drop safety on the trigger, an impact with the muzzle pointing straight up should be the most likely to cause a drop fire.

How many times do I need to drop it - assuming it does not fire - for the test to be somewhat valid?

Many times, from many different angles, from many different heights. Preferably with more than one example of any given pistol. Even the manufacturers don't test their pistols enough sometimes, which is why the Sig P320 had a safety issue from the factory, as well as Canik with their Walther copy.

 

[chrome308]

I've modified my trigger with a set screw so it's adjustable for blade safety contact with frame from full contact, minimal contact, or none at all. From what height do I need to drop my pistol to see if it fires? Also, is muzzle up when dropped the most likely for the striker to release? How many times do I need to drop it - assuming it does not fire - for the test to be somewhat valid?

Drop it from shoulder height onto a hard non-compressible surface like concrete. Generally we're worried about the muzzle up configuration, cause if its muzzle down its just going to shoot the dirt (big deal). Also muzzle up yields the most direct impulse to move the trigger shoe backwards.

To really adequately test drop safety, you'd want a lot of drops from many angles. Its difficult to do that kind of testing without using a test mule pistol you don't mind getting scarred up. Any padding or material you use to protect the finish on the pistol is possibly going to cushion the impact a little bit.

 

[imaoldfart]

I've modified my trigger with a set screw so it's adjustable for blade safety contact with frame from full contact, minimal contact, or none at all.

My question is, why in the cornbread 8ell would you do that. What's to be gained from this mod?

I'm also having a really hard time trying to visualize what this mod consist of. Post a picture or pictures....good clear, close up's as well.

Surely you're not talking about Lanzer's mod to the sear housing.

Most important: If you actually modified your trigger safety blade and you adjust it to where it has NO frame contact, your pistol is NOT drop safe. DO NOT PERFORM A DROP TEST WITH LIVE AMMO WITH THE TRIGGER SAFETY DEACTIVATED.

In fact, there's no need to perform any drop test, as this pistol WILL fire if dropped from a high enough height and lands on the rear of the slide/muzzle up.

 

[chandler5566]

Are you guys going to donate pistols for him to perform all those drops? If it doesn't release with a number of hard hits directly on the back of the slide or dropping 18" it's likely not to release at all.

By the way scooter....use a mallet....not a steel hammer!

 

[balance]

Are you guys going to donate pistols for him to perform all those drops?

No. My pistol is stock, with a drop safety on the trigger. I don't feel the need to do any drop testing. My suggestion would be to keep it that way and spend the money on ammunition and practice.

But if you want to take safety devices off of pistols, and claim that it is safe, I would hope that everyone would require a whole lot of testing in order for your claim to have any credibility.

If it doesn't release with a number of hard hits directly on the back of the slide or dropping 18" it's likely not to release at all.

It has been shown that the striker can release with a drop from as little as 18". I tested mine, and my PPQ released the striker from a drop from about that height. With the drop safety on the trigger bypassed, it should take a drop with more force to pull the trigger to the rear enough to lift the firing pin block, so that the drop would result in a drop fire.

I have to ask, though, what is the purpose of bypassing the drop safety on the stock trigger? Are you really sacrificing the drop safety in order to get just a slightly shorter trigger pull length?

It should be much easier to get a discharge with the Expert trigger though, especially if the information in post #54 is correct, in that the trigger, at rest, is already lifting the firing pin block.

 

[chandler5566]

Scooter....are you referring to a PPQ or the SF? If it's a PPQ I suggest adding the Apex trigger and if the SF then wait for Apex to go to production for that one.

 

[scootertramp]

Thanks for the input guys - I added the set screw through the trigger shoe, it allows me to adjust the amount the blade contacts the frame. The only reason I made this mod was to see what would happen dropping the pistol with varying degrees of the blade contacting the frame - from as delivered from the factory to slight contact to no contact. This is a steel frame Q5 and I'll drop it on concrete with only a towel on the concrete to somewhat protect it. I'll drop kit from shoulder height, so about four feet.

I've shot IPSC/USPSA since 1988 and am a GM in both Open & Limited since '97 so I've "played" with pistols a LOT! I'm shooting a USPSA match tomorrow so will start the test either Sunday or Monday. I'll try to post requested pix & report results then. By the way, currently shooting Carry Optics with the Q5 and the trigger blade safety will be in the as delivered from factory mode.

 

[scootertramp]

Oh yeah, I'll drop it in the muzzle up position as best I can and continue until failure. If no failures after 10-20 times I might call it quits, depends on how bad a beating the pistol is taking.

 

[chandler5566]

Oh yeah, I'll drop it in the muzzle up position as best I can and continue until failure. If no failures after 10-20 times I might call it quits, depends on how bad a beating the pistol is taking.

I really hope you are not going to drop that many times because you feel some "obligation" to do so. If you are bound and determined to test it I suggest the 18" followed by one from the hip....simulating a drop while drawing from holster. Then call it quits!

 

[scootertramp]

My first test will be with the safety blade making no contact with the frame - if it goes bang then I'll move on to the blade making minimum contact. If it goes bang there then I'll move on to as delivered and it should not go bang! Realistically shouldn't have to drop it more than 4-5 times.

As an aside, I just tested it a few minutes ago with the safety blade adjusted to make no contact with the frame - using a good sized mallet I beat on the beavertail like a spastic monkey with the muzzle pointed up and pistol cocked. I could not get the striker to fall after 10-12 hard shots in a row to the beavertail. Now I'm really curious as to what will happen when I drop it from hip or shoulder height!

Dunno if this could be a factor but I do have one of Charlie Vaneks light Glock striker springs in place of the factory striker spring.

I really hope you are not going to drop that many times because you feel some "obligation" to do so. If you are bound and determined to test it I suggest the 18" followed by one from the hip....simulating a drop while drawing from holster. Then call it quits!

 

[chandler5566]

Just to clarify what Earl will be selling....it will not be the complete expert trigger which includes the trigger bar+shoe(s) and the all important sear block/fire control. The fire control is the "brain" within which you are able to make adjustments. The trigger bar is needed to swap out the factory trigger to one of the alternates.....flat, curved, etc. Earl does not believe there is any difference between the trigger bars other than to add the various shoes.

 

[balance]

So what exactly is Earl selling?

 

[chandler5566]

So what exactly is Earl selling?

Trigger bar and shoes.

 

[imaoldfart]

I'd like to see pictures of the trigger bars, side by side. Or, if the Expert trigger bar was cheap enough, I'd buy one, simply to look at and learn/see what they're doing. I have my doubts that this new trigger bar is the same as a stocker.

I have no desire to install it in a pistol I'd actually use, as there's apparently NO center 'drop safety' blade. But I would like to play with it on the bench.

 

[chandler5566]

I'd like to see pictures of the trigger bars, side by side. Or, if the Expert trigger bar was cheap enough, I'd buy one, simply to look at and learn/see what they're doing. I have my doubts that this new trigger bar is the same as a stocker.

Earl said the trigger fits all PPQ's....not just the sf.

 

[imaoldfart]

Well.....how much is it.....surely you asked? I'd be willing to pay, er', oh, maybe $25 just for educational purposes.

As I sit here letting my mind wander, I wonder if the Expert trigger's trigger shoe pivots on the trigger bar, like the P99. The P99's shoe pivots, up to clear the frame as you begin to pull the trigger....THAT's the drop safety.

THAT's why I'd like to examine one of these triggers. I still question the limited movement of the trigger bar. Doesn't seem to have enough travel to interface with and actuate the FPB. Again, inquiring minds would like to know, and I'd pay a nominal fee to learn the secrets. :SD

 

[imaoldfart]

Just went to youtube, found a video of some dudes fondling a PPQ SF with expert trigger. They were speaking a foreign language, I had no idea what they were saying as the only foreign language I speak is pig latin.

Anyways, in watching the video, the trigger shoe didn't pivio. It simply moved rearward and forward no more than approximately 1/8". Needless to say, NO drop safety (maybe its built into the sear housing assembly) and there's certainly no way to engage, disengage the FPB....at least, my pea brain can't envision how that would work.

BUT, if they'd put a drop safety mechanism in the sear housing and a manual safety of some sort....I'd like to have that setup in one of my 'fun' guns.