[1917-1911M]

Regarding the double leg mainspring. The coils are going to have to be minimum in number and they are going to have to be wound right next to one another. There will be no room for a gap between each side and the hammer leg will have to either be narrow or begin narrow and then widen to the width of the hammer but yes....such a design should power the hammer forward from the center of the rear of the hammer. Is there physical room for such a spring of enough strength....I don't know. 1917

 

[1917-1911M]

A new mainspring will need to look something like this. The windings will have to be minimal in number, sit side by side with no space between them, the square end should fit behind the hammer with the lower legs being caught by the frame as presently designed. The inner diameter of the coils will need to approximate the diameter of the hammer pin and not tighten down against it as the spring is wound. I see no reason a spring like this would not be a drop in part as long as the dimensions and weight are the same. How to get the same amount of tension is totally lost on me. It is a combination of wire type, diameter, leverage distance against the spring I assume. How you get there from here....I have no idea other than overall dimensions. Are their spring design programs available on line where you enter the dimensions, weight of the spring, wire diameter, etc. to arrive at something similar to the stock mainspring? Where are the engineers on this board? 1917

 

[Crete]

My understanding is that by securing the slide in the forward/closed position, the sight picture remains the same from sto to shot. Also, the closed slide allows the same pressure to develop from shot to shot. This is unimportant in a semi-auto rifle and many tests have showed that accuracy and chamber [pressures are not affecting anything much, like a small velocity variation makes no difference in semi-autos fired with open or closed bolts, but in the P22 there is a lot of difference in precision/accuracy between a slide that operates in semi-auto and in a single-shot configuration in my tests.

On RimFireCentral a thread called "50 at 200", shows how fifty .22 LR rounds (and .22 Magnum), group at 200 yards from a rifle, and the results are fascinating.

RimFireCentral 50 at 200 accuracy test link: 50 at 200 - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Pay particular attention to post #85: 50 at 200 - Page 85 - RimfireCentral.com Forums regarding the even heel of ELEY .22 LR projectiles. See pic below with the experiment of "reloading" drilled w/shallow holes to the projectiles and shot by first orienting them Top place of hole or Down place of hole in the chamber, compared with factory/as-shipped LRs. The groups shrank and the number of pesky flyers reduced as a result.

 

[Crete]

Re the hammer mainspring: the P22 frame allows only the one-legged ending to rest at the rear, as there is no provision for two in that area.

Some modification on the rear of the P22 frame is, therefore, necessary for the double-leg spring to sit on the horizontal plane, in order to provide an equal pressure force to the hammer when the trigger is releases it, which needs to be taken into consideration: one spring leg (the one on the Right) has to be single and not double me thinks, while the visible end-leg of the spring ought to be double and square to the hammer's axis. Correct?

 

[1917-1911M]

For what I'm doing the sight position has no effect. i'm not aiming. Simply placing the pistol in a rest and the rounds are hitting where they are hitting. Other than a quick look to see that I will be hitting a 4x8 foot sheet of whatever I'm not concerned with the sights.....what I'm concerned with is how consistent the groups are with each ammo. For the next five rounds...I slide the plywood over or I raise the stop rest on the mechanical rest so the groups will be higher than the previous effort. Unfortunately in about all pistols wear occurs between the grooves and rails. This is especially critical on the P22 since both the frame and slide are zinc. In addition, the rails are not very long. I notice that I can lift the muzzle end of the 100,000 round pistol 3x the distance the fairly new QD model allows. This wear did not appreciably occur until I screwed on the suppressor with the huge increase in dirt. Zinc on zinc does not like dirt.

Bolt closed, pressure more consistent due to this...I will buy that. Bolt actions are generally more accurate than semi autos. Snipers use bolt actions for a couple of reasons. With regard to the RFCentral over 50 page long thread....first I see no point in shooting 200 yds with the wind blowing. Calm day or shorten the distance...but, whatever. I did not understand the point in drilling a shallow divot in the side of some ammo. Case release uniformity is important I would think but not sure what you can do about that but buy better ammo. So why did the group tighten up with the divot and it being turned up or down when tested. I'd also be interested in seeing the results of 10 such identical tests and see if there is any consistency.

With regard to the P22 double leg spring....I'll pull a slide and have another look but from my memory I see no problem at all in modifying the rear of the frame for uniform placement of the bottom legs. Other than holding the hammer pin I don't think the very rear of the frame plays any important part at all. At least from memory. I will say that the way the hammer and sear sit on the pins that are fitted squarely in the frame....the hammer, hooks and sear all seem to align squarely due when pressure is applied....but it all seems a bit sloppy. Note that the sear also uses an off center one leg torsion spring. A compression spring might work better there but fitting a tiny, tiny one will be difficult.

Remember the barrel is fixed to the right side of the frame.....so, sloppiness in slide fitment might effect a slide mounted scope, red dot, or open target sights but does it have any effect on non aimed groups? If I can get a very good and consistent mechanical rest for the P22 and then fire 10 or 20 groups of the same ammo under the same conditions....the groups will then begin to tell us something about the accuracy of the barrel. That is what impressed me about the groups from the Feinwerkbau were so impressive. Ammo brand didn't seem to matter....the pistol grouped it all very nicely. Not so with the other pistols. So how accurate is a P22 with the 5"barrel. I think I will get a new 5" barrel also and strap it on the new QD pistol and see if there is any difference due to wear. I also have a new slide that I can strap onto the existing 5" pistol and test that one too. No red dot is mounted but that doesn't matter when I'm not aiming anyway. Bought a thousand rounds of .22 ammo yesterday but was limited to CCI Green Tag and Federal HV match. All this other stuff is non existent at present. There was not limit on the amount....only my pocketbook. $15.00 per 100 for the CCI. The Federal stuff was less. I got the green tag due to some excellent group results it showed from a target rifle in some of the you tube videos. They had Hornady also but as I recall it did not group well from a rifle. Neither did any of the RWS ammo. I need to go back and make a list of what grouped well and what didn't. Some Eley did, some didn't. Your SK did quite well. Rifle, not pistol.....and, it of course needs to group well in your or my pistols.

There are many, many variables. I've also noticed over the years a difference in sound between the first round and following ones.....especially when fired pretty close to one another.. So what is the difference in a cold barrel full of air vs a hot barrel with thinner air and less of it? 1917

 

[1917-1911M]

I'll have to look at how the frame halves fit together and where the mainspring legs would rest. Seems simple but I don't remember if the rest area is in align with each other. Seems a simple fix if not. 1917

 

[1917-1911M]

BTW, i looked at the dots in five or six new red dots yesterday and they all flare. So it is my eyes or glasses and not the red dot lens. I will talk to my eye doctor about that and ask if anything can be done. I will even carry a red dot with me to the exam to see if we can experiment with curing that issue. Getting older, not all it is cracked up to be. 1917

 

[Crete]

I looked at a Red Dot reflex sight last week and couldn't find any flare on its bright red dot.

It was a C-MORE RTS model (pictured below) HUD design.

No flare at all.
It has glass lens (not plastic) and adjustable dot size.
Absolutely brilliant.
Lightweight and excellent in every way.

 

[1917-1911M]

Sigh.....they all had flares for me Crete. Glass, polymer, brand new ones and without any dirt or scratches. So, it is my eyes or my glasses or both. They still work fine for hitting something but if I am trying to draw a very fine bead on a small dot at 25M the flare makes it hard to tell where the center of the dot is in relation to the poa dot. Imagine looking at a comet and trying to center that on a dot. I expect I could really place some fine cross hairs on the dot. I should pull a scope or two out and have a look. Going to start a new thread regarding molding P22 grips into a blob of black rubber. OldFart gave me the idea....bought a quart and it looks like it will make an excellent mold that will surround the grip and allow the pistol to easily be held solidly in a rest. I took some photos of a new hammer and spring and will show what we are up against on a new mainspring concept. Cold and raining here...not even good for shooting. 1917

 

[Crete]

I have used Vers¡mold as a grip liner on the P22 and it works very well cushioning the recoil massively. Easy to prepare and it stays put.

 

[Igrlik]

One interesting investigation - I see green dot like flared dot. But red dot like 3 or 4 flared dots one above another.
And through Cristmas, looking on small blue lights, I saw small flared horizontal line instead of dot.
Weird!

 

[1917-1911M]

Igrlik, what do you think causes this and can anything be done to correct it? 1917

 

[Igrlik]

For me - reason could be 40 years of regarding computer screens and displays 8-10-12 hours daily. Cosequence is cylindrical deformation of crystalline lens. Specific cylindrical eye-glass could correct it partially, but not in general. Depends on distance of object.
And different projection of dot depends on wave length of lihgt.

 

[M249KING]

Would it be possible to just cut a rectangular hole out of the mount, slide the mount on top of the sight loop and fix it to the slide? Or completely removing the sight loop altogether?

 

[1917-1911M]

Yes, you could do either. I have drilled a 1/4" hole in the rear of my mount and have simply dropped it over the loop. That in and of itself won't hold a mounting base on the slide of course. I cannot figure out a good method for reinstalling the rear sight loop screw and have it hold a mount and red dot securely to the slide. The next trick is to drill through the breech block in four precise locations, throught he slide and through the mount. I use 3mm screws. The breech block is tapped and the red dot base securely fastened to the top of the slide. That appears to work well after a few false starts....two screws weren't secure enough, the front of the sight exposed to blowback from the chamber ruined it...polymer with Quartz, Shield compact red dot. But 4 screws, a nose on the mount to keep blowback off the lens and all is well. I've fired thousands of rounds suppressed and unsuppressed and the slides have not broken....3.4" and 5" versions. The pistols function fine but the suppressor really fouls the pistols very quickly. They keep functioning but that amt of dirt is not good for the zinc frame/slide in my opinion. Keep the suppressor off and they pistols stay much cleaner, much longer. 1917

 

[1917-1911M]

When and if I build another base I am going back to this style. The reason I moved the base all the way to the rear of the slide was to get it as far away from the ejection port as possible due to debris. I prefer this mount style and look however the base will still require the tongue to block debris from hitting the sight lens. I'm probably still not going to feel comfortable even with glass lenses in letting a large amount of debris hit the glass. With the above set up iwt will be a quick effort to unscrew the dot and use the factory sights should I wish to.

 

[frankorbinsr]

MOS, modular optics systems seem to suddenly be the rage for reflex red dot pistol sights. This is unfortunate for my task as all of the gun shops have red dots but no mounting bases.....because the MOS systems don't use them. Those slides are already machined drilled and threaded to accept the red dots.

I can order a Glock base at Amazon for $15, black anodized aluminum, drilled and threaded for some of the sights. The problem is...until you get a sight and base you can't exactly figure out how to best mount it to a P22 which of course has absolutely no rear sight options. Then there is the thin zinc slide to deal with.

What i will need to do is fasten a base of some kind to the slide in some manner. Either glue one on or mount it with screws that extend through the slide and into the steel breech block. That is a bit tricky too until you have a mount in hand so that you can avoid the existing mounting holes while adapting the base to the P22. Optimally glue would be great....no drilling of the slide. Place the base in a bed of cement, square it up and let it cure.

To that concept I have taken a 2" piece of P22 slide and JB Welded a 1"W x 1 1/2"L piece of aluminum to the top of it. Onto that I have Welded three nickels which have a total weight of 15 grams...same as a light red dot. Tomorrow I will see just how tough it is. Will it hold up to repeated poundings to simulate a closing slide? Total weight appx 25 grams. 1 oz = 29 grams.

In another experiment I have drilled and threaded several holes in an old breech block at likely looking spots. The thickest area is 4.8mm, there is a wing on one side that is 4.12mm and the other side is 2.4mm thick. Actually from tests in tightening down the M3 screws...even the thin side seems pretty strong. Brother In Arms had posted that for a M3 screw, there is no advantage to material thicker than 4.5mm.

To keep everything in align the breech block should be examined for likely spots. Then mounted into the slide and locked in place with the rear roll pin. The bottom of the breech block can then be drilled all the way through including the slide. The breech block holes then get threaded while the hole through the slide gets enlarged just a bit. This all works well enough and appears to be stronger than necessary for holding a mounting plate in place.

The unknown at this point is...where are the mounting holes for the sight on the base. You can't interfere with those locations while fastening the mount to the slide/breech block. Since I don't have a mount at this point I went ahead and mounted a 1" W x 1 3/4"L piece of aluminum flat bar using two convenient spots....one of which I believe will be right in the wrong spot. But, it's an old piece of a slide so it doesn't matter. The point of all this practice. What's one more hole in this ugly slide.

A number of locations lend themselves to drilling and threading. Drill from the bottom up. This many machine screws won't be necessary. The second screw from the left is going to be in a bad location regarding the pre-drilled base mounts and will likely have to be moved forward to another location.

Circular mold marks on the bottom of the breech block aid in locating drill points.

This is a part of an old slide that was subjected to various tests in acid to see how it would hold up. I forget why we wanted to know. Zinc alloy vs aluminum???? So, great piece to have to experiment on. The short piece has the JB Weld glued on parts and is resting in a vise at present. The center had already been filled with JB for a previous project.

And here is an aluminum plate fastened tightly to the slide. Obviously flat head screws will be required, set flush with the top of the base. Lowes had those but in M4 only which appeared to be a bit too large for this project.

While tightening the top plate down I noticed that the breech block is pulled upward a small amount, so I will relocate the right side screw forward and where there is a rail to support the top. This should provide a more stable mount too. The plate above is located so that it won't interfere with the existing rear sight. If I were to lose the rear sight the mounting plate/red dot could sit further rearward. 1917

Thank you, I'm not much in epoxy/glue but of solid mechanical adhesions. I did order a baSE PLATE WHICH CAN BE AFIXED WITH THE SIGHT MOUNTING SCREWS, i'll let you know from there when I get it. Again, Thanks, Frank O.

 

[fuzzymichael]

Hey 1917,
Did you ever post or share the precise spots of where to drill and tap on the breech block? I’m pondering putting myself through this same process but wanted to see if you had that info first. Thanks.

 

[fuzzymichael]

I am not having good luck with those polymer lens. Shield is going to replace mine with glass. The polymer is lighter with a quartz coating but it is very easily scratched even using their cleaning procedure. I will be waiting to see if the glass works better. The ones I purchased were $300 ea. They work well, hold zero.

Mounting such a sight on on P22Q can be done but is a bit of a challenge since Walther makes no provision for it. I have not come up with any better system than I am currently using. It requires precise drilling and tapping of the breech block. I can put up more detail on exactly where the breech block should be drilled. You must avoid the firing pin and firing pin block. i have had no issues with the slide where four holes were drilled. 3mm screws were used and that is about as large as you want to go.

A better solution for the sight wout be one where the battery can be removed without removing the sight and one where the dot brightness can be dimmed manually. My auto dimming/brightning is not working 100%. I will provide further detail on exactly where to drill the breech block shortly. Properly mounted the dot is the best device I've seen for accuracy. But the dot can't be to bright and the lens ca't be damaged or you get a flare on the dot and not a precise red circle. 1917

Did you post or do you still have the info on where to exactly drill into the breech block? I’m pondering this project and any specs would be appreciated. Thanks!