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I just found this article and it looks like if you're using a TPH, P22 or a .380 PPK for self defense then, you're set.
 

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Let's seeeeee......how can I conceal my 12 gauge??????

Shotgun (All, but 90% of results were 12 gauge)
# of people shot - 146
# of hits - 178
% of hits that were fatal - 65%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.22
% of people who were not incapacitated - 12%
One-shot-stop % - 58%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 84%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 86%
 

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I'm waiting for Walther to make a 12 gauge 3+1 version of the P99c AS.
I suppose if they chamber it for the Aguila 1 3/4" slugs, that would be workable...

Personally, since I live in one of the states that allows such awesomeness, I want to load my shotgun with these:



It creates a wound channel up to 12" wide! :eek: You could, almost, cut someone in half. They make smaller ones, 4" wide path with two rounds, in .410. Put that in a Taurus Judge...

I can't find it now, but I also saw one where they put a .50BMG round in a 12ga shell! :D

It's amazing and a little scary what's out there in shotgun rounds. I also found it odd that besides the usual suspects for gun laws, most of these were also banned in FL.

There's another smaller version of the above that's 6" wide, the "bolo round", said to be good for cutting down small trees; a couple of different rounds that have incendiary or explosive tips and one that's a hollow slug that you can pack your own "payload" in! One day, when I have a place I can shoot them...
 

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I can't believe a senior member of this forum is advocating .22 and .380 as adequate. This is why I avoided participating for so long.

To those considering self defense, read the FBI data. If you carry a pistol, carry a SERVICE caliber. There are plenty of models available in .38 +P and 9mm that are very comfortable to carry.

There is NO reason to NOT carry a service caliber. Mouse gun arguments all rely on red herring and straw man arguments. I will not enter yet another caliber debate. The issue is settled. 9mm meets the minimun FBI standard. .22 and .380 don't.
 

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To each his own. And by that I mean to each his own. It's settled for you.

And I can think of a lot of reasons to carry smaller calibers. Apparently, so do federal law enforcement, because I know several who carry .380 when off duty, and some of those were issued.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Ritter,
The only reason for the first post was to give whoever some more info so they can make there own informed decision. Carry what you want. DILLIGAF. Give this forum a chance, relax and just enjoy the forum and the great people on it. I bet you'll learn lots of stuff here, I know I have, and the photos posted are pretty nice too.
 

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I can't believe a senior member of this forum is advocating .22 and .380 as adequate. This is why I avoided participating for so long.
Seriously? Busch league comment.

Just like real estate, its all about location, location, location (of your shots).

Capt - Ha! DILLIGAF! I am using that in my sig line now!
 

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A good article, but again, it's all completely useless. We can graph data, collect figures and crunch numbers all day long. We can make fancy pie charts, record statistics, and calculate percentages. But it all comes down to these three simple basic fundamental formulæ:

1) One must have a weapon to defend oneself in order to enter the equation. Against a thug wielding an iron pipe or a group of thugs, one cannot hope for an effective chance at self-preservation unless you're Bruce Lee. The weapon must also be functional. "Click" equates to a failure of this fundamental.

2) The placement of the shot is paramount. The .22 short which enters the eye equates to instant incapacitation whereas the .454 Casull which glances the earlobe only serves to further fuel the ire of the thug in question.

3) The ultimate fundamental is constitution of the defender. The defender must possess a strong will to survive and have a cold, steely heart in the moment of passion. The defender must be willing to kill in order to conserve their own life or those in which (s)he hopes to preserve. A millisecond of doubt, fear, or trepidation can lead to failure of this ultimate fundamental. If your life is on the line, you must dance with the fight or flight syndrome. This is where only the defender can decide the outcome of the equation, charts be damned.

-Pilotsteve
 

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I don't believe this article is any less useful than all of the other books, articles, or studies done on the subject. In fact, the most salient point of this article is:

"In a certain (fairly high) percentage of shootings, people stop their aggressive actions after being hit with one round regardless of caliber or shot placement. These people are likely NOT physically incapacitated by the bullet. They just don't want to be shot anymore and give up! Call it a psychological stop if you will. Any bullet or caliber combination will likely yield similar results in those cases. And fortunately for us, there are a lot of these "psychological stops" occurring."

While we can argue all day about what is the most effective caliber, loading, gun, etc., it is still a matter of physics that a handgun round does not have the energy to "knock down" even a small-statured opponent. If we recognize that most people are educated via the media on how bullets work, then we can factor in the "psychological stopping power" of a handgun. If an incapacitating hit with a .22 stops the aggressor's action because they don't want to be shot again, then it's been successful. If an eventually fatal hit with a .45 auto doesn't stop the attacker from killing his/her victim, then that particluar round has been a failure in the encounter.

There's no magic bullet in a handgun. I'm perfect willing to accept lower power calibers if it means that the choice is either going armed or unarmed.
 

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I can't believe a senior member of this forum is advocating .22 and .380 as adequate. This is why I avoided participating for so long.

To those considering self defense, read the FBI data. If you carry a pistol, carry a SERVICE caliber. There are plenty of models available in .38 +P and 9mm that are very comfortable to carry.

There is NO reason to NOT carry a service caliber. Mouse gun arguments all rely on red herring and straw man arguments. I will not enter yet another caliber debate. The issue is settled. 9mm meets the minimun FBI standard. .22 and .380 don't.
Any gun is better than no gun. There's a difference between advocating for carrying these calibers and showing that they're not all bad.

Personally, I agree with you on the FBI data, but if you were really following their data, you'd be carrying a .45, not a 9mm.

2) The placement of the shot is paramount. The .22 short which enters the eye equates to instant incapacitation whereas the .454 Casull which glances the earlobe only serves to further fuel the ire of the thug in question.

3) The ultimate fundamental is constitution of the defender. The defender must possess a strong will to survive and have a cold, steely heart in the moment of passion. The defender must be willing to kill in order to conserve their own life or those in which (s)he hopes to preserve. A millisecond of doubt, fear, or trepidation can lead to failure of this ultimate fundamental. If your life is on the line, you must dance with the fight or flight syndrome. This is where only the defender can decide the outcome of the equation, charts be damned.

-Pilotsteve
While shot placement is important, it cannot be relied upon in a defensive scenario because 1) you may not have access to critical areas of the bad guy, if they step behind cover when the gun comes out, for instance and 2) not everyone is equal in ability, especially when the adrenaline switch is flipped. Hitting is important and the greater the quantity and size of holes is what it may well come down to with a bad guy who is determined to live.

The constitution of the bad guy is very important. The thing is that bad guys are increasingly willing to kill. That's a fact that has changed dramatically in the past 20 years, and even moreso in the past 5. All you have to do is look at the increasing number of criminals who are choosing to shoot at police officers, often over something as simple as a traffic citation. Look at the increasing violence of the crimes; home invasions are the new sport and killing is just a part of the game.

While there are still some in between, most criminals are going to either stop when they see the gun or they're going to continue until gravely wounded or dead.

I just read an article and now I can't remember if it came from Massad Ayoob or Jeff Cooper, but the difference between stopping a crime by drawing or having to fire often comes down to the steely eyed determination of the victim. You have to show the bad guy not just your gun, but your willingness to use it. Your confidence in your ability to stop them. That's what will make the ultimate difference and that is regardless of caliber.

I don't believe this article is any less useful than all of the other books, articles, or studies done on the subject. In fact, the most salient point of this article is:

"In a certain (fairly high) percentage of shootings, people stop their aggressive actions after being hit with one round regardless of caliber or shot placement. These people are likely NOT physically incapacitated by the bullet. They just don't want to be shot anymore and give up! Call it a psychological stop if you will. Any bullet or caliber combination will likely yield similar results in those cases. And fortunately for us, there are a lot of these "psychological stops" occurring."

While we can argue all day about what is the most effective caliber, loading, gun, etc., it is still a matter of physics that a handgun round does not have the energy to "knock down" even a small-statured opponent. If we recognize that most people are educated via the media on how bullets work, then we can factor in the "psychological stopping power" of a handgun. If an incapacitating hit with a .22 stops the aggressor's action because they don't want to be shot again, then it's been successful. If an eventually fatal hit with a .45 auto doesn't stop the attacker from killing his/her victim, then that particluar round has been a failure in the encounter.

There's no magic bullet in a handgun. I'm perfect willing to accept lower power calibers if it means that the choice is either going armed or unarmed.
The FBI identified this in their 1989 report. According to their psychologists, people often fall down when shot; not because of the force of the bullet, but because we, as a society, have been conditioned by television and movies that, when people are shot, they're supposed to fall down.

As you said, basic physics eliminates the "knock down" power of a gun. Any gun that could knock down the recipient would also knock down the shooter. "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction".
 

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The constitution of the bad guy is very important. The thing is that bad guys are increasingly willing to kill. That's a fact that has changed dramatically in the past 20 years, and even moreso in the past 5. All you have to do is look at the increasing number of criminals who are choosing to shoot at police officers, often over something as simple as a traffic citation. Look at the increasing violence of the crimes; home invasions are the new sport and killing is just a part of the game.
I would agree that bad guys are increasingly brazen, and probably more cowardice than anything, but have little constitution in their attacks....the bad guys in the states have little interest in dying themselves, thus the increasingly guerrilla style attacks on police officers and others. Very little constitution needed in those situations.

Good thing placement isn't reliable in a defensive situation, because I keep this little gatling gun bedside instead of a table. Just in case an intruder with a little constitution needs more holes in them. You know, because collateral damage isn't very important in a household or general defensive situation. :rolleyes:

Hybrid M134D-H: M134 Gun Systems
 

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"In a certain (fairly high) percentage of shootings, people stop their aggressive actions after being hit with one round regardless of caliber or shot placement. These people are likely NOT physically incapacitated by the bullet. They just don't want to be shot anymore and give up! Call it a psychological stop if you will. Any bullet or caliber combination will likely yield similar results in those cases. And fortunately for us, there are a lot of these "psychological stops" occurring."

While we can argue all day about what is the most effective caliber, loading, gun, etc., it is still a matter of physics that a handgun round does not have the energy to "knock down" even a small-statured opponent. If we recognize that most people are educated via the media on how bullets work, then we can factor in the "psychological stopping power" of a handgun. If an incapacitating hit with a .22 stops the aggressor's action because they don't want to be shot again, then it's been successful. If an eventually fatal hit with a .45 auto doesn't stop the attacker from killing his/her victim, then that particluar round has been a failure in the encounter.

I think this sums it up (removed the first and last bit). If you're comfortable with a gun as a primarily psychological weapon than pretty anything that goes bang and hits the BG with a projectile will do. In most cases it'll do the job.

If you're not comfortable with that and you're want something more capable of physiologically stopping a determined attacker... You should start with the 9mm.
 

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Good thing placement isn't reliable in a defensive situation, because I keep this little gatling gun bedside instead of a table. Just in case an intruder with a little constitution needs more holes in them. You know, because collateral damage isn't very important in a household or general defensive situation. :rolleyes:

I think shot placement is very important and something that should be strived for above all. But it's also true that even experienced and trained individuals tend to have poor hit percentages in high stress situations.
 

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My great-grandfather was a moonshiner during prohibition and he described a home-made round similar to this. They took buckshot and split them halfway with a knife - they then clipped them to a piece of piano wire and stuffed them back into the shell.

Stop a revenuer dead (and I do mean dead) in his tracks!



I suppose if they chamber it for the Aguila 1 3/4" slugs, that would be workable...

Personally, since I live in one of the states that allows such awesomeness, I want to load my shotgun with these:



It creates a wound channel up to 12" wide! :eek: You could, almost, cut someone in half. They make smaller ones, 4" wide path with two rounds, in .410. Put that in a Taurus Judge...

I can't find it now, but I also saw one where they put a .50BMG round in a 12ga shell! :D

It's amazing and a little scary what's out there in shotgun rounds. I also found it odd that besides the usual suspects for gun laws, most of these were also banned in FL.

There's another smaller version of the above that's 6" wide, the "bolo round", said to be good for cutting down small trees; a couple of different rounds that have incendiary or explosive tips and one that's a hollow slug that you can pack your own "payload" in! One day, when I have a place I can shoot them...
 
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