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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all

I became very courious. I don't wish to start a debate. I respect both guns, and I know both are good. But still, why is the HK winning police trials in Germany over the P99? is it that the Police agencies in Germany want to carry the same brand of side arm as the German Army? or is it that since they have to buy also other larger weapons such as MP 5s or UMPs or G36s, they get a better price for the HK than for the Walthers? maybe is it just that they want a traditional type of action with a little hammer in the back of the pistol and still have a modern polymer gun? or is it maybe that HK is becoming the M$ of firearms?


I see that German army liked their own version, because the USP could also replicate (on special BW request) very good the style of the control levers of the P38, and I also think it was very difficult for P99 to win the Bundeswehr trial, after all, when they having G36s from HK. Logical step, at least it does not rise questions. but what about police trials? I hope someone of you fine gents know the facts and please feel free take me out of this ignorance.
Best regards

Hector
 

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The best firearm rarely wins in police or military "trials".
Politics and price are usually the deciding factors.
Same reason Glocks are the American police standard (price).
Beretta won the US military trials (politics).
H&K probably had a lower price, or a better paid politician.
...
To be fair, in a heads up competition the P99 and the H&K P2000 are so close that is not an obvious winner in any category.
So price and /or politics are what really decides "trials".
 

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I don't see anything wrong with the U.S. military's choice of the Beretta. It's the nicest P-38 step-child available!
 

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It's not that the Beretta is a bad gun, it's that there are some things make it less than the best choice.

1) Its wide grips are lousy for shooters with smaller hands.

2) It is way too heavy for a 9mm pistol.  When you have to carry all of your gear, it adds up.

3)  Compared to some other guns, its durability is only so-so out in the field.  -I forgot the guy's name, but there is a gun writer who used to be an armorer for SF and he claims he always had a third of his Beretta armory down at any one time.
 
I like the Beretta, but there were better guns out there.  If I recall correctly, part of the reason the military adopted it was that purchasing them was the offset for the Italians buying fighter planes from us.

Politics and price are huge factors in firearm selection.  The reason the Union Army fielded muzzle loaders in the Civil War was that it had huge stock piles of ball and powder.  The head of Army Ordinance didn't want to buy new guns and new case ammo.  He also felt that if people could shoot faster they would waste ammunition and that would be expensive.

In WWI, the US Army had the best squad automatic weapon in the world, the B.A.R.  It didn't field it because it feared the enemy would duplicate it if it captured one.  -Internal Army politics.

When the FAL was developed it was originally developed for a smaller cartridge than the 7.62 x 51 (.308), but America insisted on its round for the NATO standard and the FAL's caliber was changed.

-Back to Beretta, one of the criteria for accepting it as the US military's sidearm was that they set up the factory in Maryland to make them.  If you say the firearm came out on top of the competition and that's why we have it, how can you require the gun be built here as a prerequisite to its adoption.  If Beretta had balked, is the government saying we would have went with a different gun.  It begs the question of how committed the US is to the idea of procuring the best firearms.  It's not.  Price point knocked a bunch out.  Others were precluded by the biases of the Army.  (Glock doesn't have a safety on its slide or frame so it's gone.)  The M9 from Beretta fit a niche and that's why we have it.  As nice a gun as it is, we don't have it because it was the best 9mm pistol in all of Creation.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
oh guys

Thanks for the very enlightening replies. I did not know of that, and I had heard that there was a political reason behind the decision of the US army to get the beretta but I did not know exactly what it was. POLITICS
 

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I don't think Walther is really worried about wether they win or lose the German contracts. They are winning so many contracts outside of Germany that it really doesn't matter.
 

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Another thing I just thought of, not sure how or if it applies, but the German military is big on HK weaponry too. If the LEO's and GI's out there work togeather frequently it makes sense to have a standard weapon that everyone uses as we see in many PD's.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Nice to know P88. I dont know much about Police or law enforcement agencies, I would apreciate if all members who know could compile examples of agencies that adopted our favorite handgun.

Many thanks all for all your replies so far.

Asc II that is way cheap, hehe.

greetings all

Hector
 

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The Montreal Police have the P99 QA.

The Quebec City Police have the P99 DAO.

Poland's National Police Force has the standard version of the P99.

Someone on the board wrote about seeing a Spanish officer with the P99. I also seem to recall the police in Britain having a few P99's in their gun locker. -No idea, what duty it is restricted to.

Although not the standard issue gun, I know it has been approved for carry by numerous local LE agencies in America as an accepted alternative to department issue.

On a separate note, the LAPD recently authorized its patrol officers to dump their Berettas and replace them with Glocks (at their own expense).
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (sprntr @ Mar. 20 2004,3:00)]I don't see anything wrong with the U.S. military's choice of the Beretta. It's the nicest P-38 step-child available!
I agree. And we also got to field GLCM missiles in Italy shortly after the contract was signed.

Go figure.
 

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Yes that's what GLCM is. Pronounced Glickum.
 
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