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oThis thread reminds me of the movie "The Terminator". Just as they kept having to kill the Alien robot over and over again in the movie this thread or ones like it pop up every couple of weeks and all on the same subject about the P99.

Common sense would tell anyone that trying to carry a Walther P99 in single action mode is even more dangerous than carrying a loaded Glock. The Glock does have an almost useless trigger safety but once in a blue moon it has been known to work but not often. The P99 has no such safety. Yes I know Walther claims their trigger has a rearward block as well but it only works if an object snags the trigger in the very upper portion of the trigger, not lower down where the finger usually rests. Any object entering the trigger guard (just like the Glock) will set both guns off accidentally.

As far as carrying it in the AS mode this is idiotic as well. Its crazy for two reasons:

The first is that if you snag the trigger for any reason such as a snag when holstering it or handling it the light trigger pull, even though long, will set the pistol off in a nano second.

The Second Reason never to carry it in the AS mode is that in a crisis situation most people would try to set the gun into its single action mode and then accidentally in a panic override the single action mode and accidentally set the gun off. I had a friend who did just that. He was awakened by a loud noise one night and jacked a round into the chamber but then failed to hit the decocker button and as he traveled down the hallway he heard another nose which was actually a crash. He tried to activate the gun into the single action mode and he went too far in the trigger pull and shot a hole through not one but several walls of the house. Luckily the fool did not end up killing someone in another room. It turned out the source of all the noise was his cat knocking things off of the breakfast bar for fun as cats often do.

There have been a lot of idiotic mechanical devices invented when it comes to pistols such as the FN Fast Action (later adopted into the Korean Daewoo pistol), the H&K squeeze cocker, the Glock take down system and the idiotic trigger safety (which usually does not work), and of course the P99 AS system. Just a few of the great engineering ideas that went terribly wrong and were often invented by engineers who never fired or carried a gun in their entire lives.

In conclusion Walther really missed the boat when their idiotic engineer did not put a manual safety on the P99 as then one could carry it locked and cocked so to speak. And better yet if he had been a gun owner and gun carrier he could have made the manual safety engage if the gun was in double action mode or single action mode or with an empty chamber allowing the slide to be worked with the safety "on" just as H&K did with their P30S pistol, then you would have had a much safer pistol when loading it, unloading it or carrying it in any mode. You may have already guessed I have carried the H&K P30S and the Glock (with a manual safety installed) but I have never carried the Wather P99 (its a safe queen and range gun only) because to safely carry it the weapon should be either in double action mode or be carried Israeli style with the chamber empty. I am not beating up on the P99 as the Israeli's carry their FN High Powers with the chamber empty and the U.S. Military demanded their personnel carry the 1911 with the chamber empty as both countries had way to many accidents when people carried either gun with a round in the chamber.

In conclusion one of the reasons the double double action/single action proved so much safer or the "double action only" proved "much, much safer" in the hands of the police was that the cops had a long hard trigger pull and if the gun could not be carried in single action mode because it had either no manual safety (Sig p226) or as in the Beretta 92 the safety drops the hammer, way less accidents occurred and accidents were lower still when either Beretta or Sig were ordered for the Police in the double action only type pistol. Massad Ayoob through his research verified these findings i.e. accidents went down dramatically with these types of pistol v/s pistols like the Glock. The only reason I did not include the P99 is that it has the idiotic AS mode of carry which makes people who have never bothered to study the mechanics of the gun nor have ever studied what people do under stress think that this is an acceptable and safe way to carry the P99. It is not and never will be. Again its just common sense. No one has to attend rocket science school to understand these simple and basic principles which are both mechanical and psychological.

People are human and they make mistakes and make many more mistakes when the machine they are engaging in is not designed with safety in mind, otherwise we would not have any need for anti-lock brakes, or safety glass or back up safeties on riding lawn mowers or guns being made with no manual safety that results in people thinking that they can carry them in single action mode even though the gun has no manual safety ala Glock or P99 in AS mode.

Of course now the rocks will be thrown at me by people who claim they never made a mistake in their life and never will and the "The best safety is between your ears". Yes the grave yards are full of such people but even worse so are a lot of innocent bystanders as well. Again Massad Ayoobs research has proven it.
 

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OK, I am out of popcorn.
No safety is needed on this pistol!
I have DA/SA with no safety (except some older Walthers and Beretta’s which I never use the safety’s and the 22/45 which is a dedicated target pistol)on all my handguns.
The DA is safety enough.
 

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When you chamber a round, the trigger is in DA mode, medium light, medium short pull.
Errrrrr.......No!

Press the decocker, and it's in AS mode, longer, heavier pull.

Also.......No!

.......and we all read the manuals that come with guns, right?
Apparently not.

......states explicitly NOT TO "cock" or "pre-stage" the trigger into SA mode as the gun does once you've fired a round.
....then my manual must be different from yours. There is no specific warning not to pre-stage the trigger into SA-mode:
“To prepare the pistol to be ready to fire, the pistol must simply be fully loaded and the striker decocked using the decocker key........In this safe position the pistol is ready to fire.”

Hence, you can carry the gun with a chambered round, decock it or not, and it's safe to carry. Don't carry it in SA mode. Which the manual says not to.
What MY manual states is :

“Single action shooting
When the pistol is loaded and the striker decocked, you only have to draw the slide assembly back by about 10 mm to cock the striker. The rapid cocking holster available as a special accessory with safety lock and slide assembly travel limiter can also be used for that purpose”.

Question: Who has ever seen, or even heard of, one of these “rapid cocking holsters”? In any case, this is the only reference in (my) manual regarding carrying in AS-mode. Walther seem to have divested themselves of this “rapid cocking holster” rather quickly, as my researches have not turned up anything remotely similar.

Balor
 

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The P99 isn't "idiotic" (and neither is the Glock for that matter). People who treat the incidental AS mode as a designated carry condition, maybe. But the P99 works just fine as a traditional DA/SA gun if you ignore the AS features. If you're running the pistol correctly, you only encounter the AS trigger after a slidelock reload or malfunction clearance. Run it like you would a Sig 200 series, a G-model Beretta, a decocker-only HK, or a D-model CZ, etc., and it's an excellent carry gun. One that most certainly doesn't need a manual safety. If that's a feature someone likes, that's perfectly fine (I'm personally not a fan of manual safeties on carry guns but it's a totally valid option if it's a well-designed safety and you master it). Just use a different pistol and let those who like striker fired, or DA, or DA/SA, or a light DA or whatever use theirs.
 

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oThe first is that if you snag the trigger for any reason such as a snag when holstering it or handling it the light trigger pull, even though long, will set the pistol off in a nano second.

The Second Reason never to carry it in the AS mode is that in a crisis situation most people would try to set the gun into its single action mode and then accidentally in a panic override the single action mode and accidentally set the gun off. I had a friend who did just that. He was awakened by a loud noise one night and jacked a round into the chamber but then failed to hit the decocker button and as he traveled down the hallway he heard another nose which was actually a crash. He tried to activate the gun into the single action mode and he went too far in the trigger pull and shot a hole through not one but several walls of the house. Luckily the fool did not end up killing someone in another room. It turned out the source of all the noise was his cat knocking things off of the breakfast bar for fun as cats often do.

Clap CLap Clap, a very nice story, but all it really shows is that people like your buddy should never own a gun at all. He can't walk and chew gum at the same time.


I can make just about any story to suit my needs. I once knew a guy that had his pistol in DA mode and heard a noise and shot three holes in a wall.



Jury: People should not use DA mode either.


Keep going with new fantasy story....



Jury: People should not own guns because they do stupid things with them.



How far you want to take the fantasy?
 

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These are trying times for everyone. Let's try to keep the discussion civil.
How is that not civil? Simply showing that one can make any argument over DS vs Safety vs no guns at all.



Many would argue and rightly so that no one should have a gun, no armies no wars. Then it would be impossible to have any accidental shootings.


So how far do you want to take this?
 

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How is that not civil? Simply showing that one can make any argument over DS vs Safety vs no guns at all. So how far do you want to take this?
It wasn't the story that I was referring to....it was the first statement combined with your previous comment to Stormytexas. All comments are welcome as long as they adhere to Forum rules.
 

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This thread has been lots of fun. Lets not spoil it now. I just got another bowl of popcorn.
 

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Fireman when the orders get lifted and you are back in my area lets get together and punch paper.

I won't be doing a Greet and Shoot but we can still do some first hand assessment of the P99.

Now lets get back the discussion (without the snide sidebars).
 

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Wait, I think that'll contribute more to fattening the curve.
I have the feeling you could eat cookies all day and still remain lean....unlike so many of us(me)!:D

I know there are many who own the P99 and enjoy it. However, I found it a bit too complex with respect to the DA/SA + decocker and the AS mode. My preference concerning firearms is the simpler the better and safer. I will stick with my PPQ 45 and PPS M2.
 

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You could carry in SA mode, but why?

I shoot my P99AS a lot in competition, in the heat of the moment the heavier DA trigger pull isn’t a big deal at all. I usually don’t even notice and first shots are on target just fine. Go practice with the heavy trigger pull or go find a different pistol. The SA trigger pull is a hair trigger. Its great at the range or for followup shots, but pointless to ass risk to yourself by carrying it that way.
 

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I shoot ipsc with my P99. First shot on every stage is DA after loading & decocking. With the time & tactics stress, I don't notice any difference from SA trigger weight.
Target shooting, with all the time in the world, yes, I notice all right.
 

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I shoot ipsc with my P99. First shot on every stage is DA after loading & decocking. With the time & tactics stress, I don't notice any difference from SA trigger weight.
Target shooting, with all the time in the world, yes, I notice all right.
It's amazing what consistent practice with the DA pull and DA/SA transition will do.

A TDA trigger isn't an insurmountable obstacle. If you practice with it in dry fire and force yourself to use the decocker in live fire, it'll become second nature like anything else you practice.
 

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I like the P99 specifically for it's trigger system and ability to be decocked into DA.


Walther made a real nice DA trigger on these things. It's advertised at around 9lbs and relatively smooth (although not quite reaching 'silky smooth' on any of my examples). No to mention the DA makes it easy to rapidly dry fire this pistol all day, no need to rack the slide.



I challenge anyone to try 1,000 dry fires on the thing and tell me that you didn't warm up to the DA at least a little.
 
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