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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Some may disagree with what I'm about to say but this is how I feel. I recently picked up a S&W MP 9mm Compact. I love the gun, its small, accurate, and shoots well. My only issue with it is concealed carry. I carry it in a Comp-tac CTAC (which btw are awesome holsters). But I am rather uncomfortable carrying with one in the chamber. For those that do not know the safety functions of a M&P, there is nothing stopping it from going bang if the trigger is pulled (much like a glock). I consider myself well trained with handling a handgun and know not to put my booger hook and the bang switch when holstering and unholstering but that does not mean accidents cant happen. For a while I was carrying my M&P unchambered until I felt comfortable carrying with one in the chamber, but I still havent become comfortable. One fellow at "draw from holster" class I took said: "If you cant operate the gun with one hand, such as racking the slide to chamber, you might as well just use it as a club, and plus you dont want to risk having a jam while chambering". Which he is right, if I ever have to use it, it will most likely we a situation where I will be very close quarters and caught off guard with little to no time to react and probably using my offhand to fight off the assailant.

Today I was practicing draws with my M&P and Fullsize P99QA. I have gotten very quick with drawing and racking but that does not mean I will always have the time and 2 hands to do it. Then I started practicing with the P99QA loaded (snap cap) and decocked. I found I could very easily and quickly rack the slide 1/4 of the inch to recock it, not only that but I could do it with one hand in almost all situations. I could cock it against my knee, or by pushing the barrel on the ground or against my hip etc very very easily and effortlessly. Then it dawned I me that I would feel much more comfortable carrying a P99c QA with one in the pipe and decocked as opposed to the M&Pc loaded and cocked. I'm still tossing around the idea of a Kimber CDP Ultra II as I would feel comfortable carrying one of those in condition 1 as it has more safety features (External safety and handgrib safety), but I do like the more compact size of the Walther P99cQA.

Your thoughts, go.
 

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I think you need to find a gun you're comfortable with using the way it was designed to be used. The decocker on the QA is made for take down purposes only. The idea of manipulating the slide just a 1/4" in a panic situation, possibly one handed, just enough to recock the weapon but not enough to half eject a round or cause a jam is crazy. If you don't feel carrying a firearm ready to fire, you need to find a gun with a manual safety.
 

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Having owned two M&P compacts, ditto for DHart also a new member to Walther Forums, I would say at this time (emphasis on "this time"), you stand a better chance of getting a reliable P99c out-of-the box than you do an M&P compact, whether it be a 9mm or a .40SW (I had one of each - they have both been sold/traded-in after multiple trips back to S&W for service.

The primarily issue and DHart is free to chime in, involves the design and tension of the mag release, a part that still after multiple iterations, experiences accelerated wear in a certain percentage of guns (hard to quantify how many and S&W is certainly not going to tell us). Combine this with IMHO an overly light mag release spring, and it is the primary reason magazines are dropping in the M&P while firing (more prevalent with the compacts than the f/s model). Worse from a carry standpoint, the problem does not alway surface immediately. It can start happening after 100 rounds, sometimes not until 1000 or more fired rounds.

S&W is actively working on a fix, acknowledges the problem, and the latest re-design of the mag catch seems to have helped (it now has a Melonite hardened tab). Unfortunately, even with the newer part, folks are still experiencing problems from what I understand. Long story made short, the M&P is a relatively new entry and IMHO and those of others, all the bugs have yet to be worked out. Conversely, the P99 standard or compact has been around a long time, benefits from German design and craftsmanship, and there are no systemic (repetitive) reliability issues associated with this gun involving one or more parts.

If you wish to learn more, I suggest you check out the M&P owners forum.
 

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I second soybomb. Don't forget there are alternatives. Battons and knives are much more concealable, and "arguable" (i use the term loosely) safer than firearms. If accidents are what worry you, find something that is not as severe in an accident.

To be honest, if I was already fending off an attacker with one hand, and could grab either a knife or a gun. I would choose the knife. Why? Because the odds are I am better with a knife then the other guy. But a gun is an equalizer (easy to use). So if somehow I was disarmed, I stand a better chance of surviving if the attacker got a knife from me then a gun. Plus a knife is more intutive in in CQ fighting. At least it is for those who truly train with them.
Once again, and as always.
Only my 2 cents.
Wage
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I think you need to find a gun you're comfortable with using the way it was designed to be used. The decocker on the QA is made for take down purposes only. The idea of manipulating the slide just a 1/4" in a panic situation, possibly one handed, just enough to recock the weapon but not enough to half eject a round or cause a jam is crazy. If you don't feel carrying a firearm ready to fire, you need to find a gun with a manual safety.
I could see half ejecting a shell while manipulating a slide 1/4" to make it hot could cause some issues, but I dont think it would be any tougher to properly disengage an external safety on say a 1911, especially if its winter and you have gloves on. I think its a known fact that cocked and unlocked is the fastest and most proficient way to carry but not always the safest. Just walking down the street cocked and unlocked doesnt bother me but jumping in and out of my truck, holstering and unholstering at I come to and from my office building etc just seems like a lot of room for error to trust that one little trigger wont get pulled.

A lot of folks that carry cocked and unlocked with a firearm such as a glock or M&P say you get used to it and get comfortable with that condition, which is probably true, but it does not mean that the chance of an accidental discharge will decrease.

I just want to be safe, and the unsafest moment when carrying a firearm is when you holster and unholster, which I do atleast 4 times a day, everyday. When I leave the house in the morning, when I get to work, when I leave work and when I setting in for the night.

I totally agree on carrying a firearm the way its meant to be carried, and with that I might just go with a 1911 condition 1 cocked and locked....I just love the walthers so much :p
 

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maybe im gonna sound harsh saying this....
but if you are FEARING your gun, then you probably shouldnt carry it.

Im a little biased, because personally i hate the QA trigger system. I feel that the AS is the way to go.... carry chambered and the first round is DA...
If your carrying a gun for self defense, then it should be deployed immediatly.
if you have to do ANYTHING to it other than pull the trigger, its no good IMO...
the acception to that is a 1911, which HAS to be carried with the safety on , hammer back.........but again that can be done from a draw...

Always imagine yourself "fighting" against an advisary that already has their gun drawn....... now what chance will you stand taking your gun out and having a rack the slide? sorry , but by that time your already full of holes....

Im not trying to sound harsh, but self defense has to be looked at harshly.... handgun training IS a martial art.... and like any martial art, proficiency is gained thru years of practice.....
 

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Excuse a newbie if this is a dumb question, but if what you want is to carry a round in the chamber, de-cocked and able to fire with one hand only, then wouldn't the anti-stress trigger system be the one of choice? Doesn't it fire from that state in DA mode if you need to be quick, or cock-able into SA mode with just the trigger if you have more time to prepare? (I haven't gotten one yet myself to practice with which is partly why I ask)
 

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David S has the proper answer to this question.

A semi auto should be carried with a round in the chamber. Cocked and locked for a SA like a 1911 or a Browning HP. Hammer down for a DA/SA and striker set for striker fired guns like the P99 and the Glock.

If you're not comfortable with those options, you should consider a J-frame snubbie revolver.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
maybe im gonna sound harsh saying this....
but if you are FEARING your gun, then you probably shouldnt carry it.

Im a little biased, because personally i hate the QA trigger system. I feel that the AS is the way to go.... carry chambered and the first round is DA...
If your carrying a gun for self defense, then it should be deployed immediatly.
if you have to do ANYTHING to it other than pull the trigger, its no good IMO...
the acception to that is a 1911, which HAS to be carried with the safety on , hammer back.........but again that can be done from a draw...

Always imagine yourself "fighting" against an advisary that already has their gun drawn....... now what chance will you stand taking your gun out and having a rack the slide? sorry , but by that time your already full of holes....

Im not trying to sound harsh, but self defense has to be looked at harshly.... handgun training IS a martial art.... and like any martial art, proficiency is gained thru years of practice.....

I can appreciate that, but just for the analogy you used I wouldnt pull a gun out if a BG had his to my chest, your reaction time no matter how fast a draw, cocked, uncocked, locked will not be quicker if he is watching you go for a gun.

But to be honest I hear that response a ton from armchair warriors, and not that it is an incorrect statement, its just there is so many things that will alter your draw time. For me to draw, rack (not chamber as it would already be chambered) just rack enough to re set the striker is probably just the same time it takes an average person to draw and knock the external safety off. A lot of people will rebut with: "well that .25 seconds to rack can mean life or death" Well so can wearing a long dress shirt as opposed to a short tshirt, or a coat/jacket for that matter that can alter the time it takes for you reach for your sidearm. And not to mention Safari holsters which we used mainly in the military. There is a retention strap that needs to be slid backwards before you can even pull the gun out, and I believe LEO's use these now too, that would be considering something that would have to be done before you can pull the trigger.

What strikes me as odd is no one will ever rebut someone carry a pocket gun, even though it is a known fact that unzipping a pocket or reaching in a pocket to not only grab your gun but to unholster it is a crazy amount of time it takes to draw.

And to be honest, yes I fear my gun, everyone should fear and respect one. And just because I want to make sure my firearm is the safest to people around me and myself yet still be viable enough to protect myself should mean I shouldnt be carrying one. I think a person that carries cocked and unlocked and doesnt respect what could happen in an accident should be the one not to carry. I am by no means a firearm novice, I have served in the military for 8 years and know how to properly handle and use one, but that does not mean an accident cant happen. I do think from reading these forums that too many people become too comfortable with their CCW firearms. I just read recently that an officer was reholstering his sidearm when the trigger got snagged on the zipper of his rain jacket, he has probably been carrying for years without an issue.

I do agree that Carrying is a martial art and should be practiced. Do you think one that trains on pulling from a holster and resetting the striker would be more proficient than a guy that (probably a huge percentage) that just carries cocked and unlocked and only going to the range once a month?
 

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I could see half ejecting a shell while manipulating a slide 1/4" to make it hot could cause some issues, but I dont think it would be any tougher to properly disengage an external safety on say a 1911, especially if its winter and you have gloves on. I think its a known fact that cocked and unlocked is the fastest and most proficient way to carry but not always the safest.
You should be able to disengage the safety on a 1911 just by taking a firing grip with your thumb in the proper position, an action much different than trying to move a slide but just a little bit. Its ultimately your call but I'd sure rather just push down as hard as I want with my thumb when I grip the gun than try to fiddle with racking the slide just a little. I think you'd be better to just carry with an empty chamber or a double action only gun.

Cocked and unlocked, at least to me, denotes a single action style gun like a 1911 and yes that is unsafe because it wasn't designed to be carried that way. In carrying it in that fashion you've overridden one of the gun's safeties. A partially cocked p99 qa is an entirely different operating mechanism and all the safeties are in place.

I do think from reading these forums that too many people become too comfortable with their CCW firearms.
I recognize that my gun firing or not is entirely up to me and if I pull the trigger it is going to fire. I have no false sense of security that a manual safety or unloaded chamber or anything else is going to keep the gun from firing.

I just read recently that an officer was reholstering his sidearm when the trigger got snagged on the zipper of his rain jacket, he has probably been carrying for years without an issue.
Not an unheard of event, if you think after years you'll become negligent like that officer than your idea probably has merit.

So what actually bothers you about the P99 QA chambered and partially cocked? Do you just want a gun that won't fire when you pull the trigger unless you do something else first? Are you afraid something in the gun is going to fail and it will go off without you pulling the trigger?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
So what actually bothers you about the P99 QA chambered and partially cocked? Do you just want a gun that won't fire when you pull the trigger unless you do something else first? Are you afraid something in the gun is going to fail and it will go off without you pulling the trigger?
Im not worried about it failing without pulling the trigger, I would just like one more backup just incase that trigger is pulled in some strange incident, such as an external safety or handgrip safety. I have no problems carrying with one in the pipe as long as there is something to add a little safety incase that does happen. This leads me to believe I might be better off going with a 1911 condition 1.

Out of curiosity, carrying a glock or M&P chambered, cocked and unlocked is the preferred method of carry, but why is it a preferred method of carry for a 1911 cocked and locked? I mean why lock it if the only thing that can set the gun off is pulling the trigger (they are designed now so that the hammer can no way in any fashion fire the round unless the trigger is pulled). Cause basically a cocked and unlocked 1911 is really the same as a cocked and unlocked glock. Is it just because the 1911 does have an external thumb safety so why not use it type of thing?
 

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Could the answer be the large difference in pull weight and sensitivity between a Glock and 1911 trigger?

I mean, the pull on a Glock is long and heavy compared to the incredible light crispness of a 1911.

Since you like the Walther design so well you really should consider the AS trigger instead of a QA. I wouldn't carry a P99 in single-action mode for the same reason as I wouldn't carry a 1911 cocked and unlocked.
 

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What strikes me as odd is no one will ever rebut someone carry a pocket gun, even though it is a known fact that unzipping a pocket or reaching in a pocket to not only grab your gun but to unholster it is a crazy amount of time it takes to draw.
That is an interesting statement, which I think is partially wrong. At times, when it is not practical for me to carry my P99c, I will pocket carry a S&W 642 snub nose revolver. In fact, depending upon the circumstances, pocket carry will enable a quicker draw, if, for example, you sense danger and have your hand in your pocket already on the grip. In other situations, such as when in a car or seated, it makes for a much more difficult draw.

However, I believe that almost everyone who pocket carries recognizes this disadvantage, but have made a value judgment that pocket carry for them is desirable enough for their situation, notwithstanding the acknowledged potential limitation on draw.

Ron
 

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I think anyone has to find the gun and operating system that he or she is most comfortable with, both physically and mentally. If your profficiency or familiarity with a particular weapon makes you feel unsafe, you probably are. However, in your quest for the perfectly safe, accident free weapon, just remember one thing... it doesn't exist! Any handgun is only as safe as the operator. Guns aren't evil beings just waiting around to "go off" all by themselves. If you dont cause the trigger to be pulled, drop it, or light it on fire, it won't go bang. ALL HANDGUNS ARE DANGEROUS!!! BUT REALLY, AIN'T THAT KINDA' THE POINT?
 

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Out of curiosity, carrying a glock or M&P chambered, cocked and unlocked is the preferred method of carry, but why is it a preferred method of carry for a 1911 cocked and locked?
Because that is the way it is designed to operate. And that is the bottom line here. You have to use the gun in the manner it was designed to operate.

In the case of the P99 QA it is designed to operate striker cocked, round in chamber. The method of operations you suggested is contrary to the design.

We each have to work out our own salvation. You decide what is important to you, and then make your choice based on that.
 

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We each have to work out our own salvation.
With fear and trembling, I might add.

Conditions of carry are as much a personal choice as are the types of handguns carried. I would still prefer to carry a pistol in condition 3 then to not carry one at all. But I think all of us would agree on that point.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Well I just went to the local gunstore and placed an order for a Kimber Tactical Ultra II. I definitely agree that one should fine the sidearm that he/she feels most comfortable carrying in the fashion it was designed for. The 1911 cocked and locked seems best for me.


Back on an previous post in the thread about the M&P mag drop issue. While I was getting back in my truck from the gunstore I caught the handle on the seat ( i have a 6" lift on my truck so it takes a little bit of "Hopping in" to get in). I thought nothing of it til I got home and found my magazine was ejected and sitting losely in the magwell. Luckily I purchased the M&P that can still fire without a mag but man they really need to fix the light spring on the mag release with something sturdier and tighter.
 

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Out of curiosity, carrying a glock or M&P chambered, cocked and unlocked is the preferred method of carry, but why is it a preferred method of carry for a 1911 cocked and locked? I mean why lock it if the only thing that can set the gun off is pulling the trigger (they are designed now so that the hammer can no way in any fashion fire the round unless the trigger is pulled). Cause basically a cocked and unlocked 1911 is really the same as a cocked and unlocked glock. Is it just because the 1911 does have an external thumb safety so why not use it type of thing?
You keep saying cocked and unlocked and I think its important to note that the QA P99 (and glocks, etc) is really neither. Locked or unlocked implies that the gun has a manual safety that is part of its mechanism. The P99 has none. Cocked means that the hammer/striker is in its fully reward position and ready to fire the round. This is not the case in the QA (and glocks, etc). The striker is partially cocked but you complete the cocking of the striker with the trigger pull. All these systems are made to work together on each gun. A cocked and unlocked 1911 has a very short light trigger pull, much more so than the QA (and glocks, etc) More importantly though its much closer to being ready to fire, the hammer is back and ready to fire, not so on the QA. On the 1911 you've disabled a safety that prevents the sear from moving when you turn the safety off. The safety on the walther is a firing pin block and it remains engaged until you pull the trigger. Etc. Its a long enough list, if you're interested in this stuff you should probably investigate the mechanism of each gun. The short summary is the 1911 is not safe cocked and unlocked because it wasn't designed to be used in that position. The QA is safe to carry with a round chambered because it was designed to be, all of the safeties are still in place in this state unlike the 1911.
 

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I had a Glock 26, but I was nervous about carrying it IWB with a round in the chamber. So I sold it and bought a P99C AS.

For me, it's the perfect solution. :D The trigger pull on the first round is long and heavy, so you don't have to worry about an accidental discharge. But there's no safety to mess with -- if you pull the trigger, it goes bang, every time.

Plus, I have the option of carrying it in SA mode, which makes it very similar to a Glock trigger, IMO.
 
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