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Discussion Starter #1
When I bought my first 9mm PPQ it was only offered in M1 and after a little practice, I found it the fastest way to change magazines. As soon as the M1 came out the gun writers all started writing that the American shooting public really want a mag release button, so we got the inferior M2.

However, I notice when H&K came out with the VP9, the gun writers were silent. There is not one article about having a magazine release button. I like my M1's over the VP9 for a couple of reason, but I am wondering why Walther had to have a magazine release button, but the H&K was just perfect without one.

If anyone has any thoughs on this I would really like to know. It is getting very hard to find a new PPq M1, which is truly superior to the M2, and who are these gun writers writing for anyway.
 

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The VP9 is now offer with a button release. They call it a VP9B. They are on board too.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I have not seen one yet, but there was not an outcry from the gunwriters that it had to have the button.
 

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I don't remember it being that way and I also don't think the M1 is superior to the M2, just a different option that about 9 out of 10 American shooters prefer with the M2.

Plenty of PPQ M1 available, you just have to know where to look. There are dozens of vendors that have it in stock in the link below. Local stores may not have it in stock because it does not sell that well.


https://gun.deals/search/apachesolr_search/2795400
 
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Every review that I can remember reading mentioned paddles and 'how would the US market' demand a button, and yes, HK responded to those who don't understand or wish to admit of paddles being better.


My PPQ is an M1 from 2011.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I don't remember it being that way and I also don't think the M1 is superior to the M2, just a different option that about 9 out of 10 American shooters prefer with the M2.

Plenty of PPQ M1 available, you just have to know where to look. There are dozens of vendors that have it in stock in the link below. Local stores may not have it in stock because it does not sell that well.


https://gun.deals/search/apachesolr_search/2795400

I do not have time to go through your table. See the answer above. Every gunwriter mentioned the paddles, which, I believe, are superior. There was not one article about H&K getting rid of their paddles. Maybe H&K did put a button on, but not because people were told what to think. I guess gun writer are afraid to criticize H&K particularly for not good reason.

If you table was to show that M1's can still be found, yes, but they are getting fewer in the US, not in the EU, where they know the advantage of paddles. You do not have to move your hand position at all when changing a magazine.
 

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But here's the rub: Walther is now offering the Q5 and Q4Tac in the Classic (M1:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:) version.

Me likey.

Me want.

Me needs to sell a kidney. Any taker?

(kinda sorta not kidding. You bring the cash and the anesthesia. I'll provide knife and gloves). ;)
 

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For the Q5 and Q4TAC, this seems like a no-brainer (to do the paddle version). They already had the frames with the paddle mag release done.

Now, how about doing the M1 PPQ45 ??? :D still waiting....
 

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For the Q5 and Q4TAC, this seems like a no-brainer (to do the paddle version). They already had the frames with the paddle mag release done.

Now, how about doing the M1 PPQ45 ??? :D still waiting....
As I think you point out, the PPQ45 would be harder. A new frame would need to be produced. I am pretty sure Walther sub contracts out the frames. It would be interesting to know what it costs to produce a new one.

I'm sure Walther does the little calculations before taking on a new product....i.e. cost to manufacturer vs expected numbers to be sold leading to a profitability calculation.

The M1 Q4s and Q5s sound like a no brainer due to the reuse of existing parts.
 

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Yes, exactly. Similar to what Gunbuyer did a couple of years ago when they offered a 5" PPQ in the M1 paddle version.

More work and cost to do a .45 with the M1 frame. Depends if they can sell enough to make it worth while.
 

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I think the expectations are different for HK bs Walther. I’m not sure if HK offers and pistol with a button release prior to the new vp9b. Where as Walther has been offering button releases for a while.
 

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I am pretty sure Walther sub contracts out the frames. It would be interesting to know what it costs to produce a new one.
I'm curious what makes you believe that this is the case. What makes you think that Walther subcontracts the frame of the pistol?

As for the OP, H&K and Walther have been "one-upping" each other for a long while now. Walther originally got the paddle mag release from trying to get the P99 to compete against the USP. The P2000 got replaceable backstraps from trying to compete against the P99. The P99TA got ambidextrous slide release levers from competing against the P2000. The P30 took ergonomics and grip shape one step further and got replaceable side panels. The P99Q then got a revised grip shape trying to compete with the P30. Now it seems that H&K is going with the button mag release to compete again with Walther.

As for the point of people criticizing Walther when they wouldn't criticize H&K, just get used to it. Certain forums are more open minded than others, and certain brands have more of a rabid fanbase than others. I mentioned the sentiments from the paragraph above this one on the H&K forum, and that thread not only got closed, but it then literally disappeared from the "official" H&K forum. If there is one brand that is not as open to being criticized, it is H&K. Just the thought that H&K took ideas from Walther, was repulsive to H&K fans. It is almost like a religion at this point, to the point where if someone does criticize them for logical reasons, there are repercussions from the fans. Most people I've spoken to in person seem to have noticed this. It wouldn't surprise me if some magazines noticed this as well.

I think H&K made a smart decision for the VP9B to use the same magazine as the VP9 and P30. I believe Walther should have made the same decision, but then H&K had a few years of market research with the PPQ M2 to figure out how to release a button mag release pistol, in the same way that Walther had copied H&K's designs years earlier, and vice versa. Personally, I think they are two of the best polymer pistol manufacturers at the moment, and I love it that they are in constant competition with each other. Every time they bounce ideas off each other, that usually results in improvements, and then we as the consumers win.
 

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I'm curious what makes you believe that this is the case. What makes you think that Walther subcontracts the frame of the pistol?.
Fair question. In the recent P&S podcast I believe that statement was made. I'll go back and listen to it again because there was a lot on insight offered. A statement was made to the effect that Walther's competencies are machining and barrel making. The plastic bits are jobbed out.
 

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I'd like to see official proof from Walther itself regarding their sub contracting the frames.

If it IS true, then WHO makes them..?

These are things we need to know :D
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I'm curious what makes you believe that this is the case. What makes you think that Walther subcontracts the frame of the pistol?

As for the OP, H&K and Walther have been "one-upping" each other for a long while now. Walther originally got the paddle mag release from trying to get the P99 to compete against the USP. The P2000 got replaceable backstraps from trying to compete against the P99. The P99TA got ambidextrous slide release levers from competing against the P2000. The P30 took ergonomics and grip shape one step further and got replaceable side panels. The P99Q then got a revised grip shape trying to compete with the P30. Now it seems that H&K is going with the button mag release to compete again with Walther.

As for the point of people criticizing Walther when they wouldn't criticize H&K, just get used to it. Certain forums are more open minded than others, and certain brands have more of a rabid fanbase than others. I mentioned the sentiments from the paragraph above this one on the H&K forum, and that thread not only got closed, but it then literally disappeared from the "official" H&K forum. If there is one brand that is not as open to being criticized, it is H&K. Just the thought that H&K took ideas from Walther, was repulsive to H&K fans. It is almost like a religion at this point, to the point where if someone does criticize them for logical reasons, there are repercussions from the fans. Most people I've spoken to in person seem to have noticed this. It wouldn't surprise me if some magazines noticed this as well.

I think H&K made a smart decision for the VP9B to use the same magazine as the VP9 and P30. I believe Walther should have made the same decision, but then H&K had a few years of market research with the PPQ M2 to figure out how to release a button mag release pistol, in the same way that Walther had copied H&K's designs years earlier, and vice versa. Personally, I think they are two of the best polymer pistol manufacturers at the moment, and I love it that they are in constant competition with each other. Every time they bounce ideas off each other, that usually results in improvements, and then we as the consumers win.
That is why I do not read gun magazines anymore. When the writers know less then you do, it is time to move on. H&K is an "Operators" gun you now. I do not blame H&K just chicken**** gun writers.
 

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That would seem odd. Didn’t Walther supply the p99 framed for the base of the baby eagle? In that case they would contract out to a supplier to resell? Wouldn’t they just collect a royalty and it be easier?
 

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I might have been wrong. I relistened to the podcast. The Walther Product guy Vorhees said they do not do injection molding in house but subcontract that out. In house they concentrate on machining and barrels. I took that to mean plastic molds but could have meant MIM. It was not clear but on second listening it was probably referring to MIM. You be the judge.

It is not out of the range of possibility that Walther owns the rights to a design but farms out the production of parts of it.

It was stated that Walther had made barrels and parts for other firearms manufacturers. They would not say for who.
 
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