[druryj]

I am a long time Walther owner, of the PPK and PPK/s, and now, a PPS M2. I am just bewildered by this question: Which guns with the Walther name on them are real Walthers, and which ones are made by Umarex? I think the PPQ, P99, Q5 Match and PPS are real Walthers, made in Ulm, and the others are made by Umarex in Arnsberg. Can someone clear this up please?

 

[kensmith]

Normally Umarex only produces selfdefense and recreational products like airguns, airsoft, blank firing firearms, etc.
They normally do not produce live firing firearms, at least noch here in germany.

It could be, that Umarex, as Walther subcompany also takes care of export to other countries to only have this done via one company, but not sure on this.

It is not impossible, that Walther and Umarex produce parts for each other.
Since some of the live firing pistols, like the PK380 or P22 are also sold as balnk firing pistols here in germany, that the frames are produced by Umarex and given to Walther. But then there would have to be Umarex markings on the parts.
Just checked my PK380 and there are only Walther markings on it.

 

[Balor]

They normally do not produce live firing firearms, at least noch here in germany.

They do!

It could be, that Umarex, as Walther subcompany........

Umgekehrt! Umarex is the parent company, Carl Walther the “subcompany”.

Just checked my PK380 and there are only Walther markings on it.

Check it again and tell us if you find a shield containing three crowns. Then explain to us why Walther would send a pistol all the way from Ulm up to Köln to be proofed - especially as the Proof-House Ulm (Beschussamt Ulm) proofs Walther firearms directly in the Walther factory, even though the Beschussamt is literally “just down the road” (3km) from the Walther works.

To answer the OP: Firearms manufactured in Ulm are proofed in Ulm and are stamped with the corresponding proof-mark (an antler). Firearms which are manufactured in Arnsberg are proofed by the Proof-House Cologne (Köln), either in Köln or in Arnsberg and are stamped with the above-mentioned shield containing three crowns.

There are also (historically) “genuine” Walthers which were manufactured in Zella-Mehlis (former DDR or East Germany), as well as Manurhin (France) - but you can find out about this by reading up on the Walther history (for example, on the carl-walther.de website).

Balor

 

[Kar98]

There are also (historically) “genuine” Walthers which were manufactured in Zella-Mehlis (former DDR or East Germany)

Slight correction, really a nitpick: when Walthers were made in Zella, later Zella-Mehlis, that town was NOT in the former DDR/East Germany.

 

[Balor]

Slight correction, really a nitpick: when Walthers were made in Zella, later Zella-Mehlis, that town was NOT in the former DDR/East Germany.

That is correct, as you stated, as the factory was abandoned in the face of advancing Soviet forces. Zella-Mehlis was originally occupied by the US Army on the 4th April 1945 and handed over to the Red Army on the 3rd. July 1945. It subsequently became part of the DDR in 1949 and remained as such until the reunification of Germany.

For someone unfamiliar with German history, it might be simpler to refer to Zella-Mehlis as part of the former DDR/East Germany, but of course, no Walthers were produced there under Soviet or DDR administration.

Balor

 

[balance]

Which guns with the Walther name on them are real Walthers, and which ones are made by Umarex?

"Staghorn" proofmark:

Ulm: P99, PPS, PPQ, PPX, Creed

"Three crowns" proofmark:

Umarex: P22, G22, SP22, PK380, CCP

Technically, all of the above are "Walther" pistols, but I don't believe anyone can deny that there is a drastic difference in quality between the pistols designed and made in the Walther plant in Ulm, compared to the pistols designed and made in the Umarex plant in Arnsberg.
​

A good general rule to follow is that if the pistol was always made in the Ulm plant, then it is good to go, and if it was ever made in the Arnsberg plant, it is not.

 

[Balor]

Another simple way to tell the difference is to go to an arms dealer and ask to see one of each (antler and shield proof-marks) side-by-side on the counter. Then remove the slides and have a look at the insides. It should be IMMEDIATELY obvious - even to the untrained eye - that both children are the products of different homes.

Balor

 

[kensmith]

They do!



Umgekehrt! Umarex is the parent company, Carl Walther the “subcompany”.



Check it again and tell us if you find a shield containing three crowns. Then explain to us why Walther would send a pistol all the way from Ulm up to Köln to be proofed - especially as the Proof-House Ulm (Beschussamt Ulm) proofs Walther firearms directly in the Walther factory, even though the Beschussamt is literally “just down the road” (3km) from the Walther works.

To answer the OP: Firearms manufactured in Ulm are proofed in Ulm and are stamped with the corresponding proof-mark (an antler). Firearms which are manufactured in Arnsberg are proofed by the Proof-House Cologne (Köln), either in Köln or in Arnsberg and are stamped with the above-mentioned shield containing three crowns.

There are also (historically) “genuine” Walthers which were manufactured in Zella-Mehlis (former DDR or East Germany), as well as Manurhin (France) - but you can find out about this by reading up on the Walther history (for example, on the carl-walther.de website).

Balor

You are right...sorry for the wrong info

 

[DeutschlandUberAlles]

As for the "apex" "Real Walther"? The P5, IMHO.


Just picked up my 4th P5 in around 2 weeks. 3 NIB (one a rare Italy Cat 1062 two caliber w/ no import markings) and one shooter (95%).

 

[Balogh]

"Staghorn" proofmark:

Ulm: P99, PPS, PPQ, PPX, Creed

"Three crowns" proofmark:

Umarex: P22, G22, SP22, PK380, CCP

​

The exception proves the rule. These are examples of the missing crowns.

 

[Balor]

The exception proves the rule. These are examples of the missing crowns.

.......but not the missing antlers! Those examples must have either been manufactured and proofed in Ulm, or manufactured in Arnsberg and shipped to Ulm for proofing, possibly due to a backlog in Köln or due to the proof facility being refurbished.

Balor

 

[druryj]

Okay, I get it. Thanks to all who responded. I am well aware of the history and all about production at Z.M. , Manhurin, and now ULM. What I guess kills me is that the Dealers have guns in the case marked "Walther" which, IMO, are simply not worthy of the name. It is misleading to many people. I was listening to an employee at a LGS explain to me how great of a gun the CCP is a few days ago...I mean, after all, it does say "Walther" on the side. Now, I do like the look and feel of the CCP, it is a sharp pistol! And the similarities to the P7 are cool. But rely on it as a self defense gun? No thanks. My PPS? Yes, all day every day. It's just a shame; to me anyway.

Might as well close this thread. My question has been answered sufficiently for me.

 

[Balogh]

I am well aware of the history and all about production at Z.M. , Manhurin, and now ULM.

Is there a huge difference between models marked "Manurhin" and "Manhurin"?

 

[Balor]

Is there a huge difference between models marked "Manurhin" and "Manhurin"?

Yes, indeed - and I think we've been there before!

Posts #11, #12 and #17 of the following thread:

https://www.waltherforums.com/forum/pp-tp-series/93161-late-production-manurhin-ppk-s-9mmk-2.html

Balor

 

[Kar98]

That is correct, as you stated, as the factory was abandoned in the face of advancing Soviet forces. Zella-Mehlis was originally occupied by the US Army on the 4th April 1945 and handed over to the Red Army on the 3rd. July 1945. It subsequently became part of the DDR in 1949 and remained as such until the reunification of Germany.

For someone unfamiliar with German history, it might be simpler to refer to Zella-Mehlis as part of the former DDR/East Germany, but of course, no Walthers were produced there under Soviet or DDR administration.

Balor

So... Zella-Mehlis wasn't in the former, but in the FUTURE DDR/East Germany

 

[Balor]

So... Zella-Mehlis wasn't in the former, but in the FUTURE DDR/East Germany

Oh dear!.......I didn't realise they were going to bring it back!

Balor

 

[balance]

The exception proves the rule. These are examples of the missing crowns.

There are P22 pistols out there with the "Staghorn" proof mark as well.

If the pistol was ALWAYS made in the Ulm plant, it is good to go.
If the pistol was EVER made in the Arnsberg plant, it is not.

 

[Balor]

The exception proves the rule. These are examples of the missing crowns.

There are P22 pistols out there with the "Staghorn" proof mark as well.

It would be interesting to find out why, also why Balogh's PK380's have the Ulmer proof-mark. I've speculated on the reason in post #11 above, but I still don't think it likely that P22's and PK380's were manufactured in Ulm.

On the other hand, shifting significant numbers of firearms over long distances to be proofed is not what I understand to be normal German practice.

Balor

 

[UniversalExports]

It would be interesting to find out why, also why Balogh's PK380's have the Ulmer proof-mark. I've speculated on the reason in post #11 above, but I still don't think it likely that P22's and PK380's were manufactured in Ulm.

On the other hand, shifting significant numbers of firearms over long distances to be proofed is not what I understand to be normal German practice.

The most likely reason is that Umarex is trying to further muddy the waters by making it appear that their Walther-branded junk is actually made and proofed in Ulm. I've been warning Walther novices for years to look for Ulm and the antler before plopping down good money on anything branded "Walther", and I'm sure others have as well. This looks like an attempt to confuse those unschooled on the matter, which unfortunately includes a lot of gun store people, I found.

 

[ErichS]

Some may argue that the only true Walthers were those made in ZM.