[Nocturnal]

Hello all,

new to the forum and shooting. I recently took the NRA Handgun introductory class and I'm looking to buy my first gun. I've pretty much settled on getting a gun in 40 caliber for the following reasons:

- I'm in CA so 10 round mags, extra 9mm ammo doesn't do me any good
- thin walled houses in our area so I'd prefer a slower, bigger round over a small fast one that easily overpenetrates.

I really like the P99 AS:

- long first pull unless you precock, seems good for protection scenarios while still useable for matches
- decock, if you have to reholster after firing several rounds (think protection scenario again) you don't have to unload and empty the gun then reload to make it safe to carry
- Deutsche Gruendlichkeit (German Thoroughness)
- Tennifer

This gun seems to be pretty difficult to come by. Local shops only carry the 9mm and are vague about how long it would take to order one. I have an FFL close by so I'm looking at remote dealers like AK-47man. He hasn't returned my call yet but let's say he tells me he doesn't have this guy either, what are some alternatives I should look at?

- P99 9mm (what ammo do I use to prevent overpenetration?)
- SW99 (I hear the quality is lower)
- XD40 4" or 5" (also hard to come by it seems and lack of decock seems a problem)
- P99 DAO/QA (not sure I like that action)
- beretta of some sort? Not familiar with them at all.

Maybe I'll hear today that the P99 I want is available and this is a moot point but I thought I'd ask anyway

 

[BreakerDave]

The P99 AS in .40 should be easy to obtain.  The AS is just a new name for the standard configuration P99.  You might want to go by www.gunbroker.com and pick one up there since you already have a FFL lined up.  -Also, unless you really need the 2004 styling and its universal accessory rail, I'd look at the earlier standard version of the P99 online.  Some of the used guns can be picked up for a good price.

One point on the decocker in the AS model, it does not make the gun safe / incapable of firing.  It just returns the gun to DA.  (I don't really see that as a plus, but if it makes you feel better, go for it.)  The decocker on the QA is the one that makes the gun incapable of firing until the slide is partially racked to cock the striker to its preset position.

As for the alternative guns you have listed, they are all quality firearms.  The P99 DAO and P99 QA have different trigger pulls.  The DAO model is more like a revolver with its heavy, long trigger pull and has no decocker.  The QA is very Glock like, albeit with a heavier trigger.  

Good luck-

 

[M96er]

If you are very conscience about overpenetration, I would recommend you consider a 12 gauge shotgun with 00 buck.  Also, penetration through soft media like housing materials is more of a problem with heavier loads, not the lighter 9mm loads.  In fact, FBI stats have usually found .223 SP out of an AR to penetrate housing materials less than handgun ammo because the 55gr-77gr projectile does not have the momentum to penetration multiple layers as well.

Now, this is reversed if you are taking "hard" media such as steel plates.  A lighter, higher velocity round will penetrate "hard" media better because a hard media requires a certain amount of energy to impact it, thus deforming the material and causing penetration.  Since E=mc^2, velocity has a much greater influence on energy than mass.  So, cartidges like the .357sig have the best "hard" media penetration of most calibers............useful for trying to hit a gunman through a car door.

Anyhow.........I'm rambling.......
If I were you I would consider not only 9mm, but .40, .45acp, and .45GAP.  The SW99 comes in 9mm, .40, and .45acp...........all are fine pistols.  For GLOCK, I advise you to consider the G37 in .45GAP which has a 10+1 capacity.  It's a newer round that equals .45acp performance in a smaller package.  Check the GAP out here:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/petej/

Personally, I don't recommend Beretta or the XD.  Never like either of them much.  For ammo, modern defense ammo is designed to limit penetration so don't be so concerned.  Any reasonable caliber is going to go through at least a couple of walls with a bullet design that is going to do any damage to a badguy.  I don't recommend going with the super light, fragmentable ammo like Glaser as penetration in flesh is sooooo low that you will be puting yourself at risk if you are relying on that for defense.

Virtually all defense loads have a penetration around 12" in 10% gel solution.  This was the FBI's minimum penetration standard for effective ammo.  So as you can see, ammo manufacturers are doing what they can to ensure effective ammo while at the same time maximizing safety.  Just go with lighter hollow point loads and you'll be fine if that is a big concern to you.  Personally, I prefer the heavier loads for all calibers as the lethality of your shot is more dependent on adequate penetration over expansion.

 

[M96er]

Just to add............here are some links to some good stuff:

Here is a gel test(soft media) photo with the most common calibers:

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin....=000581

As you can see, penetration is very similar.

Here is a good interp of the FBI testing:

http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php

 

[masdog]

Personally, I would try to find the .40 P-99 with the DA/SA or AS trigger. Since this is your first gun, don't discount the 9mm, though. The only reason I ever bought a .40 before a 9mm was because I was started on .40. After shooting a nine once, I found the cartridge more managable...

The DAO would be similar to the first pull on an AS model...the QA is more like a Glock from what I'm told. You might have better luck if you check out some local gunshows. You could find something close to what you're looking for pay a heck of a lot less for it.

All P-99's have pretty much the same features such as the German toughness and Tennifer treatments. As long as you get something in the line, you'll be fine.

Quote[/b] ]Since E=mc^2, velocity has a much greater influence on energy than mass. So, cartidges like the .357sig have the best "hard" media penetration of most calibers............useful for trying to hit a gunman through a car door.

Not to nitpick...but....you used the wrong equation. THe one you're looking for is K=1/2mv^2, where K is kinetic energy, m is mass, and v is velocity.

Sorry..i just took my physics midterm on Monday....

 

[Nocturnal]

Thanks everyone for your posts and insight. I've found two locations online so far that sell the gun at a decent price. ak-47man is gone till Tuesday so I hope to order then. I wanted to rent some guns first and try them but then I need to bring someone to the range with me which makes it a hassle. Most of my friends don't live to close by and while my wife would go with me we'd have to get a sitter for the kids

I figured I can't really go wrong with such a quality weapon and if it really doesn't work for me I'll trade it in.

I read about the 45 GAP and that it's a good round that holds its own against the 45 ACP. Glocks are obviously great guns (I've shot them a few times) but _everyone_ has one. The P99 seemed a bit more special. Certainly a glock would be a good option.

As far as 9mm penetration goes, we were explicitly warned in our class that 9mm rounds tend to go through many more walls than .40 or .45 ones. I suppose this depends a great deal on the type of ammunition you use. I'm not sure balistic gelatin results can be readily extrapolated into sheet rock/wood/glas behavior. Unfortunately I can't just build a piece of wall and take it to the range to try this out

I have also heard that .223 rounds penetrate sheetrock less than typical handgun munition. Maybe its instable behavior that makes it effective against tissue has something to do with it?

How do you buy guns at gunshows with the waiting period and all that? Pay and fill out paperwork and they send the gun after 10 days?

Thanks again everyone!

 

[BreakerDave]

Quote[/b] (Nocturnal @ Oct. 23 2004,3:27)]How do you buy guns at gunshows with the waiting period and all that? Pay and fill out paperwork and they send the gun after 10 days?

-I live in NV so I just take the gun the same day, but I remember the dark times when I lived in your backwards state...  

The process is really simple.  You pay for it and do the paperwork at the show.  If the seller is from out of state (or out of your area in the sense of commuting distance) he will arrange a transfer to a local FFL who is at the show.  Typically there is always some FFL at the show doing these transfers for $24 - $30 a pop.  Ten days later, assuming you pass, you can pick up the gun.

CA used to have a Basic Firearms Safety Card that was required before you could purchase a gun.  I know they replaced that with the HSC (Handgun Safety Certificate).  You probably have the card since you took a basic NRA class, but I thought I'd mention it because if you don't have it you can't buy a handgun...

One other dealer to look at is:  Doc Walthers

 

[Nocturnal]

Yeah, I got my HSC card and have an FFL lined up close to work. I was just wondering if, since you bought the gun in person from the vendor at the show the FFL step could be avoided. Guess not

thanks for the link to that vendor. Today I saw a 2003 P99 40 in green (which I like) for $699 at a local vendor. Add 8.25% tax to that and compare to $500 untaxed at two internet capable dealers so far. I'm all for supporting local merchants but that's just too big a price difference to ingore.

 

[M96er]

Quote[/b] (masdog @ Oct. 23 2004,12:47)]Not to nitpick...but....you used the wrong equation.  THe one you're looking for is K=1/2mv^2, where K is kinetic energy, m is mass, and v is velocity.

Ah yes.........school seems like a distant memory.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[M96er]

That's a bit pricey, Nocturnal. I got mine from a local dealer for $545 in .40. The best dealers to buy from are ones who work out of junky garages or workshops, not a store. As far as gun shows go, each state is difference. In Texas all you do is fill out a form, they call to run a quick check on you, and then you take home your firearm. Gun shows usually have pretty decent prices.........especially if you pay in cash.

 

[Nocturnal]

The $699 price was at a pretty junky place but hey, this is Sillivalley There was a 9 mm for $639 (I think) at a more pleasant sports store. Guess you can never can tell. I hope to order on Tuesday.