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I know, about every month thos gets posted. How does a Turkish company out-innovate Walther (new MC9 what the PPS should have been easily 5 years ago. It seems like our vaunted Walther is starting to fall behind the times. Doing just enough to stay somewhat relevant, but feeling like they are just mailing it in. The only real (significant) innovation is the PDP-F and the WMR... since I'm not into the WMR, not even sure it's a Walther as it most likely have come from Arnsberg (Umarex).... I'm getting impatient.
 

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It's a balancing act. Walther likely won't produce a gun in this class because there would be nothing especially unique enough about it to profitably compete. Additionally, Walther can't compete against itself. For example, it made a serious investment in the PPK & PPK/S line and would likely not want to draw customers away from it with another pistol in the middle between say the PDP and the PPK. However, Walther could further invest in the PPK & PPK/S models with those two models in .32 acp. Unlike pistols in 9mm, no other company is making the PP series. Sure, there are lots of pocket .380 pistols out there, but none fit the niche market of the PPK & PPK/S. That said, there would be some profit if the "final edition" P99 production included a P99c.
 

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Everyone seems to think that the US concealed carry market is the only thing that is important to the gun companies. Many of the companies like Walther, Beretta, HK probably sell mostly to military and police organizations and the US concealed carry market make up a small part of their sales.
As far as innovation goes companies like Glock have not innovated in 40 years and they still have good sales even though they do not make a micro 9 pistol.
 

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I know, about every month thos gets posted. How does a Turkish company out-innovate Walther (new MC9 what the PPS should have been easily 5 years ago.
The new MC9 will probably be a hot ticket. A good gun at an excellent price.

I don't really see the gun as innovative though. It's probably a good gun but innovative? What does it bring to the table that hasn't been seen before?

Walther was an innovator with the PPS M1. It was the first successful striker-fired polymer mini-9.

Sig was an innovator with their successful incorporation of a stack and a half magazine in a mini-9.
 

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Walther has shown over the past decade that they can only focus on one weapon at a time. They have also shown that they are the worst at marketing of all the well-established small caliber weapons makers.

Yes, the PPS was the best of the single-stack 9s that were all the rage 6-8 years ago. Walther didn't demonstrate that - it was reviewers like Guns & Ammo with side-by-side shoot offs. Then their focus shifted to the PPQ with its variants including its ill-conceived SC variant. Now its the PDP. Marketing on each has been abysmal. Canik doesn't innovate, they copy and do variations. The weapon that got Canik on ANYONEs, outside of Turkey, radar was a complete copy of the P99. For me the problem is that Walther is going further and further away from anything I want to own. They dropped DA/SA, they dropped paddles, etc. Heck, every maker has high-capacity striker fired polymer pistols in 9mm - everyone. I own a PPS M1 in 9 and 4 P99s. I do not envision myself owning any new models from Walther unless, and until, they go back to doing somehting other than changing up the grips on the ubiquitous high-capacity striker fired polymer pistols in 9mm.
 

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Walther has shown over the past decade that they can only focus on one weapon at a time. They have also shown that they are the worst at marketing of all the well-established small caliber weapons makers.

Yes, the PPS was the best of the single-stack 9s that were all the rage 6-8 years ago. Walther didn't demonstrate that - it was reviewers like Guns & Ammo with side-by-side shoot offs. Then their focus shifted to the PPQ with its variants including its ill-conceived SC variant. Now its the PDP. Marketing on each has been abysmal. Canik doesn't innovate, they copy and do variations. The weapon that got Canik on ANYONEs, outside of Turkey, radar was a complete copy of the P99. For me the problem is that Walther is going further and further away from anything I want to own. They dropped DA/SA, they dropped paddles, etc. Heck, every maker has high-capacity striker fired polymer pistols in 9mm - everyone. I own a PPS M1 in 9 and 4 P99s. I do not envision myself owning any new models from Walther unless, and until, they go back to doing somehting other than changing up the grips on the ubiquitous high-capacity striker fired polymer pistols in 9mm.
I suspect most of us have shifted buying and interest to other mfg/models for the same reasons. I had one of the first PDP's in my hands and after close inspection saw nothing but an improved grip vs the PPQ. I own three Walthers (PPQ 45, PPS and the infamous CCP) and that is probably all I will ever own.
 

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Interesting discussion.

It does seem strange that Walther wouldn't put something out there to compete with P365s, Hellcats, etc--especially now that HK is on the cusp of something in that vein.

But I agree with @Depenau -- What are they going to add to the equation to be truly differentiating? Other than just being Walther--which I think was more or less the strategy with the PPS. And it never really outshined the Shields and XDSs of the world.

Of course my cynical side says, "offer the AS system in a teeny gun, stupid!" No one else would have that. But I just don't think Walther will go there unless people are begging for it focus groups. Because they'd have to spin it, market it, make people understand the benefits of it... and that costs a lot of money. Plus, Walther's ability to express a nuanced consumer benefit in marketing communications is, perhaps, dubious.

But, man--I'd love to have a gun with a PPSish profile and the AS|DA/SA system. I wouldn't even care if it was single stack--though that's a non-starter these days.
 

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It does seem strange Walther has seemingly all but abandoned the small gun market.

Walther started out making small pistols and has been consistently strong in that niche through the years.

There has to be a back story to this.
 

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How does a Turkish company out-innovate Walther
One advantage Turkey has is lower labour costs. It's also possible that the are willing to accept a lower profit margin on their products.

Walther has shown over the past decade that they can only focus on one weapon at a time.
I suspect that Walther is a much smaller company that any of us believe. They may not have a large budget for research and development, and instead invest in manufacturing. They certainly aren't spending much on marketing.

It does seem strange Walther has seemingly all but abandoned the small gun market.
But have they? The PPS M2, CCP M2+, PPK, and PPK/S are all still in production. The only small self defense guns discontinued in the last few years have been the PPQ SC, P99c AS, and PK380.

The PDP-F 3.5" is also quite compact, is it not?
 

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One advantage Turkey has is lower labour costs. It's also possible that the are willing to accept a lower profit margin on their products.



I suspect that Walther is a much smaller company that any of us believe. They may not have a large budget for research and development, and instead invest in manufacturing. They certainly aren't spending much on marketing.



But have they? The PPS M2, CCP M2+, PPK, and PPK/S are all still in production. The only small self defense guns discontinued in the last few years have been the PPQ SC, P99c AS, and PK380.

The PDP-F 3.5" is also quite compact, is it not?
That's my own pet theory as to what is going on. Very limited funds available for new product development. Perhaps production capacity is more limited than we know.

I see your point about Walther still producing small guns. They are. I was incorrect.

What they don't have is something that competes head to head with the leaders in that segment.

We love the PPK but it's in a niche all it's own. I wouldn't say it directly competes with the P365 and Shields as an EDC nowadays, at least not for most people.
 

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As to the "back story" Jimmo952 wonders about, it could be related to the scrutiny given Walther, Sig and Glock on where and how their products have been used and a reluctance to enter particular market niches coupled with a need to shift more/certain (gun type) production to the US to avoid this scrutiny and associated restrictions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Ok, so not trying to bash Walther please understand,... I really do love Walther have so many, and have turned so many people onto Walther.... But my original question remains... is how does Canik take their (Walther) tech whether by temporary partnership (helping with production and Walther granting them to keep the tooling for P99), or whether by just stealing and copying, make better/more improved guns, of Walthers own technology (all based off P99) than Walther can?.... I mean honestly the latest Walther pistols they put out are still behind the Caniks...I have bought them all (Walther and Canik), and find Caniks and Walthers equal in quality of manufacturing, but Walther behind continually in trigger, and options... Hranted Walther put out a steel frame before Canik and they had the PPS, which Canik hasnt copied and cant legally. Walther has the best grip in my opinion, maybe just a hair ahead of HK, and definitely better than Canik, but trigger and sights on Canik so much better than Walther that I dont even shoot my Walthers whether competition or just training. Aaaaaaannnnd Canik is easily $200 or more less than Canik. But, I do understand the difference in currency value and labor prices, but Walther doesn't compete with Canik in sights and trigger and options (such as keeping all the same mags thru all variations or all you get plus holster with Canik). Again Walther is definitely better with grip, but i use grip tape on both which negates the small benefit of Walther... Anyone who honestly tries/buys the latest (stock) Caniks vs (stock) Walthers sees the sights and feels (metal on Canik, plastic on Walther) the triggers from Canik lighter, crisper walls with stock 90 degree flat triggers vs. Walther. can easily distinguish Caniks superiority. And now Canik has just put out a steel version Competition gun that's half the price of Walthers steel frames, and Canik also just one -upped the PPS (which I carry) with a freaking double stack that's essentially the same width as the PPS but somehow can still use all the same mags from the whole Canik TP9 line. I've never had any non ammo malfunctions with either my Walthers or Caniks, and I've put probably double the rounds thru my Caniks (easily 14,000 plus ) now than thru my Walthers.
 

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You've been given a couple of possible reasons, but I think it always boils down to a (Walther) business decision. Walther appears to be embracing modularity as opposed to completely different new products. Perhaps the best to hope for is a "babby PDP" with a shorter grip. (Aside from grip length, the 3.5 PDP F closely matches the dimensions of a Glock 26 Gen 5.)
 

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The Turks are capable of turning out some pretty decent guns.

I've seen Girsan put out Beretta92 clones that had much better quality than some of the stuff recently coming out of Beretta's Tennessee plant.

Pretty happy with an FRN marked 870 clone I have, too. Ran me like $100 and actually ran fine out of the box... which I couldn't say about my much more expensive Mossberg Shockwave I purchased.

Some of Canik's products are very compelling and if they ever put the DA/SA system on an optic ready P99C sized firearm I'd have no choice but to jump ship.
 
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