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Discussion Starter #1
Been seeing these talked about being picked up on this and other forums.
As low as $450 off GB :eek: up to an unknown dollar figure. Now I go to the gun show and there is one for $1150. I guess they have been in peoples safes and now they are unloved like first wives...:)
 

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Are any of these guns actually chambered in .380 rather than the oddball .380 Super?
Do I recall some having their chambers sleeved to take the smaller/shorter round, or is that brain fade on my part?
Always liked the looks and size of those pistols, but stayed away due to ammo issues.
Moon
 

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I never heard of a 380 Super but the 9mm Police or 9x18 was a a cartridge designed in Germany in the late seventies to push the limits of a blow back action and offer a bit more of stopping power than the 9mm short (380 ACP). The Walther Super is the only pistol chambered in that caliber that I know. The idea didn't have much success and in the end the German police departments in the different Lander adopted relatively compact (for the standards of the time) 9mm Parabellum pistols, namely the Walther P5, the H&K P7 and the SIG-Sauer P225. I think the 9mm Police is similar in energy to the 9mm Makarov.
 

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The .380 Super (9x18) cartridge was designed by the Austrian Hirtenberger company in the early 70th and designed for the PP Super exclusive.
 

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There are two PP Supers--

9x18 Ultra, which was mft'ed from 6/74 to 1979 but sold until 1981. The serial # range was for 10,001 to 21,101. thus 11,000 were made. The ammo is marked 9x18 Ultra or 9x18 Police (I have seperate runs of Fiocchi labeled both ways).

9mm Kurz (aka 380 acp) which was mft'ed from 5/76 until 1979 but sold until 1981. Serial # range from 100,001 to 101,300, thus 1300 were made in 9mm Kurz. Appx 1000 were sold in US.

The 9x18 Ultra is commonly found BUT the ammo is not. When you do find it, buy a bunch.

The 9mm Kurz is harder to find (look at the number made above) and the more costly of the two.

They do make a nice set.
 

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Type: Double Action
Calibers: 9x18 Police and 9x17 Browning Short (9mm Kurz/.380ACP)
Weight unloaded: 780 g
Length: 176 mm
Barrel length: 92 mm
Capacity: 7 rounds

The Walther PP Super pistol came into existence circa 1972, as a proposed service handgun for West German police. At that period, German police looked for a new standard handgun and ammunition, to replace obsolete and underpowered pistols then in service. During the early 1970s there was much debate about a new service cartridge, and two major contenders were the already famous 9x19mm Luger/Parabellum, and the relatively new 9x18 Police cartridge. The 9x18 Police cartridge has been based on pre-WW2 9x18mm Ultra ammunition, developed in Germany by the Geco and Walther on request from Luftwaffe (German Air Forces). The 9x18 cartridge offered about a maximum power which could be used in relatively compact and lightweight blowback pistols. This, in turn, allowed these pistols to be simpler and less expensive than locked-breech 9x19mm pistols. Recognizing these advantages of 9x18 ammunition, the Walther company developed a police pistol, roughly based on the famous Walther PP pistol, and called it PP Super. However, by mid-1970s German law enforcement authorities selected the more powerful 9x19mm ammunition as a standard, and by the end of 1970s the 9x18 Police ammo went out of favor; Only about 2 000 of 9x18 PP Super pistols were purchased by Bavarian Police during 1970s. Some of PP Super pistols were also made in 9x17 short caliber, but the future of the police handguns was in 9mm Luger, and the Walther company dropped the PP Super from manufacture circa 1979, focusing on 9x19mm pistols like P5 and P38 / P1 / P4.
The Walther PP Super is an all-steel, blowback operated, double action pistol. Unlike its predecessor, the Walther PP, the PP Super featured an external slide stop lever, and a manual decocker on the left side of the slide, which, when pushed down, locked the firing pin and released the hammer, and then automatically returned to the 'fire' position. There was no manual safety, but the PP Super has a firing pin safety, and was intended to be carried with the loaded chamber and hammer down, ready to be fired in double action mode. The magazine catch is located on the side of the grip, next to triggerguard.
A word of caution to the owners of Walther PP Super pistol. The scarce 9x18mm Police/Ultra ammunition is NOT compatible with Soviet 9x18 Makarov PM ammunition. Attempts to fire 9x18 Makarov ammunition from PP Super pistol are very dangerous due to the larger diameter of 9mm Makarov bullet.
 

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Thank you for the info. I assume that 9x18 is difficult to find.
The Super chambered in 9x18 ultra is readily available now on GI and GB. All on GB are listed at $650 and haven't sold in several relistings, including one with five boxes of ammo and one with box and full paperwork, target.

The sale at $450 for the .380ACP version was a combo of a low buy now price and luck :D
 

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There are two PP Supers--

9x18 Ultra, which was mft'ed from 6/74 to 1979 but sold until 1981. The serial # range was for 10,001 to 21,101. thus 11,000 were made. The ammo is marked 9x18 Ultra or 9x18 Police (I have seperate runs of Fiocchi labeled both ways).

9mm Kurz (aka 380 acp) which was mft'ed from 5/76 until 1979 but sold until 1981. Serial # range from 100,001 to 101,300, thus 1300 were made in 9mm Kurz. Appx 1000 were sold in US.

The 9x18 Ultra is commonly found BUT the ammo is not. When you do find it, buy a bunch.

The 9mm Kurz is harder to find (look at the number made above) and the more costly of the two.

They do make a nice set.
Yes, ammo was why I didn't get a super chambered in ultra. But, I love your matched set and need to take the plunge.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
To quote Scouts10 "A word of caution to the owners of Walther PP Super pistol. The scarce 9x18mm Police/Ultra ammunition is NOT compatible with Soviet 9x18 Makarov PM ammunition. Attempts to fire 9x18 Makarov ammunition from PP Super pistol are very dangerous due to the larger diameter of 9mm Makarov bullet."
This is why:
9mm x 17mm or .380 bullets are .355 diameter
9mm x 18mm Ultra or Police bullets are .355 diameter
9mm x 18mm Makarov bullets are .366 diameter.
 

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A quick perusal of my loading manuals doesn't even mention the beast, and a voice in the back of my head sez that there is no real interchange of the 9mm Ultra, .380, or 9mm when it comes to reloading dies and equipment, tho' I'm willing to be wrong about that. Bullet diameter comes out okay, but it seems to me there is some other issue to keep you from readily reloading the brass, even if you can acquire some, without dedicated dies.
Moon
 

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My copy of Cartridges of the World shows it as the "9mm Ultra" and notes that it is also known as the 9mm Police. They list a load of 3.6 grains of W231 behind a 100 grain bullet for 1010 fps and 225 lbs-ft (at the muzzle).
 

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Picked up a Nice Walther PP Super in 9 Ultra. Always wanted one. Thought I would try some of the Fort Smith Solid copper TUI bullets just for fun. 9 Ultra is loaded with 98.8gr Truncated bullets that tumble. Current Fiocchi is loaded to 960+ fps. This thing was made in 1974 and it looks brand new, shot very little if at all! My serial number makes it one of the first made in 74. 100XX. Ordered a spring kit for it cause the one in it are 46 years old and Walther has parts in stock! Spring kit arrived today, new recoil spring is the same length as the old one. have 700 rounds of 9 Ultra brass and just for grins I tried some 9 Makarov cases cause' they are virtually the same length sized down to accept a .355 bullet in 9MM dies.
Loaded up some 9x18 Mak cases sized in 9 MM Dies with .355 90-95gr .380 bullets, worked like a champ! Feed, cycle, eject like they were made for it, fit the chamber perfectly. They end up looking like 9 Mak rounds cause the magazines are made for truncated bullets not round nose ones......so you have to seat round nose FMJ's little deeper than normal. Using .380 load data. Dimensions are generous enough that Mak cases fit the breech faces on ALL my .380's. CZ, 82/83's Sig 238, Browning BDA, Walther PPK, Colt 1908 and even my Husqvarna 1907. They won't chamber all the way in the .380's cause the case is tapered and bigger in diameter. Didn't anyone ever try using Mak cases sized in 9 MM Dies? No split or bulged cases like you would get using 380's in the 9 MM Ultra. Started reloading .380's and everything else since 1982ish.
They work great the gun can't tell the difference. Used .380 load data for 95 gr bullets. 9 Mak was based off 9 Ultra. There is enough tolerances in the rims and gun so the little bigger rim of the 9 Mak works fine. Yes it will shoot and cycle .380's but the bulge a bit cause the cases are smaller in diameter, 9 Mak fit just like they were made for it. It's a keeper!
92654
9 Mak cases are Red. 9 Ultra are Green the 3 in the center are .380's. 9 Mak and 9 Ultra are really thick walled at the rear of the cases. You can see the .380's bulge slightly near the base.
92655

Assorted 9 Mak/9 Ultra reloads. Even cast lead truncated 100gr bullets work great!
92658

92657


92660


Fiocchi factory 9 Ultra run around 966fps.
92661

My 9Mak/9 Ultra reloads with 95gr JHP's run around 990 with 4 grains of WW231.
92662
92663
92664
 
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