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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Sorry if this has been discussed before, but what defensive ammo are you guys using in your P99? I've used 115 Cor-Bons in my Glock. I am still breaking in my Walther with ball, but I did try some Ranger 147 HPs and they were a very nice load. My primary concern (since I doubt reliability will be an issue) is that I want a good round that will not overpentrate but still do its job. One of the responsibilities those of us who carry have is considering what a round will do if ever (God forbid) we have to shoot for our lives. What is behind the threat if we miss, or a round over-penetrates? Just curious to see what you guys are using. Thanks.

Caspian:cool:
 

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I carry Winchester Ranger 147gr. standard pressure. This might not satisfy your overpenetration criteria, because if the hollowpoint doesn't open this puppy goes DEEP. I like it because it shows consistend penetration, expansion, and has comparable recoil to WWB.

I also have a small supply of Ranger 127gr. +P+, and while the recoil isn't bad, it makes it really hard for me to hammer targets like I train to do.

Anything from the Ranger line, and anything sporting Gold Dot bullets are about as good as one can do with a 9mm right now. My wife likes the Federal EFMJ rounds, but I don't know much about them and damn sure can't afford to run a proper reliability test with them.

+P and +P+ MAY enhance terminal effectiveness; but dumping 3 or 4 rounds center mass in about a second seems like a higher probability, more proactive solution to the problem of "stopping power" than praying for a majic bullet. Just my unprofessional opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks. I found the 147s to be really soft shooting and will do some more research on them. It seems like a good idea. You make a very intelligent observation about bullet placement however. I have to try out some of the Gold Dots. Thanks, excellent reply.
 

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I use 147 gr WWB JHP. It expands and penetrates well, is available and cheap. I agree that the 147 is a softer kick. It actually produces more recoil, but the recoil is spread out in time so it feels more like a push than a kick. Not everyone agrees.
 

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I carry either Speer Gold Dot 124gr jHP or when I can find it 147 gr....my early model really likes the 147 gr stuff...I like shooting it too...bought a bunch of Brown Bear 147 gr when it was around here pretty cheap. Good shooter and reliable too. I am not too fond of the steel case but I really don't think it will do any harm....
 

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Lately I've made a lot of research gel tests, water gallon tests and IMHO any of these would be good enough:

1- Double Tap Gold Dot 9mm +P 115 gr. jhp @ 1415fps/ 511flbs
2- Pow'Rball (PB09100) 9mm +P 100 gr. pbjhp @ 1475 fps/ 483ftlbs
3- Double Tap Gold Dot 9mm +P 124 gr. jhp @ 1310fps/ 473flbs
4- Cor-Bon (SD09115) 9mm +P 115gr. jhp @ 1350 fps/ 466flbs
5- Winchester Ranger (RA9TA) 9mm +P+ 127 gr. jhp @ 1250 fps/ 441flbs
6- Speer Gold Dot (GDHP53617) 9mm 124+P gr. jhp @ 1220 fps/ 410flbs
7- Cor Bon DPX (DPX09115) 9mm +P 115gr. jhp @ 1250 fps/ 399flbs
8- Federal HST (P9HST3) 9mm 124 +P gr. jhp @ 1200fps/ 395flbs
9- Remington GoldenSaber (GSB9MMD) 9mm+P 124 gr.jhp. @ 1180fps/ 383flbs

All These loads are powerful, penetrates and expand well.
 

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Lately I've made a lot of research gel tests, water gallon tests and IMHO any of these would be good enough:

1- Double Tap Gold Dot 9mm +P 115 gr. jhp @ 1415fps/ 511flbs
2- Pow'Rball (PB09100) 9mm +P 100 gr. pbjhp @ 1475 fps/ 483ftlbs
3- Double Tap Gold Dot 9mm +P 124 gr. jhp @ 1310fps/ 473flbs
4- Cor-Bon (SD09115) 9mm +P 115gr. jhp @ 1350 fps/ 466flbs
5- Winchester Ranger (RA9TA) 9mm +P+ 127 gr. jhp @ 1250 fps/ 441flbs
6- Speer Gold Dot (GDHP53617) 9mm 124+P gr. jhp @ 1220 fps/ 410flbs
7- Cor Bon DPX (DPX09115) 9mm +P 115gr. jhp @ 1250 fps/ 399flbs
8- Federal HST (P9HST3) 9mm 124 +P gr. jhp @ 1200fps/ 395flbs
9- Remington GoldenSaber (GSB9MMD) 9mm+P 124 gr.jhp. @ 1180fps/ 383flbs

All These loads are powerful, penetrates and expand well.
Did you try WWB 147gr JHP and disqualify it, or was it not included in your tests?
 

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Well duck:
Testing all loads, grain weights and ammo brands available in the market today is too expensive so when I began evaluating wich was the best load I first made a data and internet research and I discarded the 147 gr loads as they have the lowest one shot stop % in actual shootings as stated in Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book: "Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition" .

You can check this data in this webpage:
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp

Many people say that Marshall and Sanow method to evaluate the efficacy of one shot stop % is incorrect but as They use the same method for all loads and the 147 gr in most cases had the lowest average of one shot stop I discarded them. It doesn't means that they would not do the job in fact they do and the newer loads as the Federal HST 147 gr. have good reports already.

I tested around 15 different loads and IMHO the nine I posted were the best, they consistently penetrated and expanded well in both mediums, gel and water gallons.

I also tested:
-Glaser (01200) 9mm +P 80gr. jhp @ 1650 fps/ 484flbs
-Federal Hi-Shock (9BPLE) 9mm +P+ 115 gr. jhp @ 1300fps/ 430flbs
-Federal EFMJ (PD9CSP2H) 9mm 105 gr. efmj @ 1230 fps/ 350flbs
-Aguila IQ 9mm 65 gr. Alloy jhp @ 1550fps/ 347flbs
-Winchester SXT (S9) 9mm 147 gr. jhp @ 990 fps/ 320flbs (the only 147 gr load tested 'cause I had a box at the moment)
-Remington Hi-velocily (R9MMD) 9mm 124 gr. jhp. @ 1110fps/ 339flbs

They did work but their results weren't very consistent. The Glaser and the Aguila IQ were impressive in the gel test but didn't penetrate well. The Federal Hi-Shock and the Rem Hi Vel not always expanded, their jacket fragmented and the lead flattens. The SXT expanded poorly and often loose the jacket. The Federal EFMJ was interesting but their design self limit their expansion. I only shoot 5 rounds in each medium and I did not take pictures because I hadn't intention to publish them but most of them expanded just as the pictures you usually see in the forums.

I hope this could answer your question.
 

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By the way, I carry:

-FNP9: Double Tap GD 9mm +P 115 gr. jhp @ 1415fps/511ftlbs
-CZ P-01: Winchester Ranger 9mm +P+ 127 gr. jhp @1250 fps/441ftlbs
-Walther P5c: Remington GS 9mm+P 124 gr. jhp @ 1180fps/383ftlbs (a bit milder)
-Walther PP : Speer GD .32 60 gr. jhp @ 960fps/123ftlbs
 

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DPX are excellent performers , I liked the way it always opens its petals the same way, very good penetration too. If I remember well the best expanders were:
-Federal HST 9mm 124 +P gr. jhp (best expander)
-Double Tap Gold Dot 9mm +P 124 gr. jhp
-Winchester Ranger 9mm +P+ 127 gr. jhp (impressive fangs like petals)
-Speer Gold Dot 9mm 124+P gr. jhp
-Cor Bon DPX 9mm +P 115gr. jhp
 

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From the Marshall and Sanow website using 9mm 147 gr we have:

9 mm Stopping Power 147 gr
Brand Bullet Shootings One Shot Stops Percent Diameter Penetration
Federal HS 74 59 80% 0.46" 13.9"
WinchesterBT 84 66 79% 0.47" 15.3"
Federal HS 304 240 79% 0.51" 17.1"
WinchesterBT 259 203 78% 0.53" 16.3"
Federal JHP 71 55 78% 0.62" 18.3"


The Federal JHP has the best penetration, best expansion, and worst % One Shot Stops. Does that make any sense?
 

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Good point duck, the best stoppers overall were:

-Federal 115 JHP +p+ 91% 0.71" 13.9"
-Winchester 127 BT JHP +p+ 90% 0.68" 14.4"
-Winchester 115 JHP +p+ 90% 0.68" 14.4"

Maybe the 0.71" or 0.68" expansion in these loads vs 0.47", 0.53" or 0.62" in the 147gr loads could be an advantageous factor, but I really don't know...

Of course Marshall and Sanow say these are results in actual shootings and the human body is a more complex medium and there could be others factors involved (as shot placement) than expansion and penetration.

It would be interesting if someone could contact Marshall and Sanow to know what explanation they could give about that.

In the meantime I still would be using the Double Tap GD 115 gr.+P and the Winchester Ranger 127 gr.+P+ .

:)
 

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It would be interesting if someone could contact Marshall and Sanow to know what explanation they could give about that.
I can believe that since all the best performing rounds are +p+, the difference may be in the damage caused by the pressure wave (temporary cavity) rather than expansion and penetration alone. But within the slower rounds, it does not make sense that the best penetrating and expanding round is the worst stopper. And why would placement be an issue since we are talking about one-shot stops. I wouldn't expect the round itself to change the placement on the first shot.

The round itself would not affect follow-up shots.....well.... unless the lower recoil of the slower rounds makes it possible to make a follow-up shot. Maybe some of the non-one-shot-stops would have been one-shot-stops if the officer had just stopped shooting after one. But that would totally undermine the Marshall and Sanow study.
 

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The Marshall and Sanow study has got to be one of the most Laughable Things I've ever read.

It's based 100% on anecdotal evidence and police reports written by officers likey suffering from mild PTSD.

It makes NO EFFORT to catalog where suspects were shot, what drugs they were on, or what their mindset was (if the shot wasn't to the brain or spinal cord, this is the most important factor).

If you want a one shot stop, carry a rifle. If you find yourself in a defensive pistol shooting, you should be shooting until the assailant is down or you need to reload. PERIOD.

Have you looked at thier one shot stop percentages for other calibers? All the best 9mm rounds according to their "tests" were +P and +P+, indicating that high energy rounds seem to have some extra effect in the real word. But for some reason, .45 ACP generally has higher one shot stops than .44 magnum rounds according to their method.

I applaud them for trying to help people make life saving choices, but their methods have no scientific foundation. I'll stick to my weak 147gr. Rangers and focus on a gentle trigger squeeze with every sight picture. If I ever encounter a situation where 4-8 rnds rapidly placed center mass don't have the desired effect, I'll try for a head shot followed by two pelvic shots with a round heavy enough to penetrate thick bone.
 

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I can believe that since all the best performing rounds are +p+, the difference may be in the damage caused by the pressure wave (temporary cavity) rather than expansion and penetration alone. But within the slower rounds, it does not make sense that the best penetrating and expanding round is the worst stopper. And why would placement be an issue since we are talking about one-shot stops. I wouldn't expect the round itself to change the placement on the first shot.

Maybe the temporary cavity makes the difference. I fact in the gel block the Winchester SXT 147 gr only made a channel that you barely could see on some point, but I remenber that the Pow'RBall 100gr. +p, Double Tap 115 gr +p, Cor-Bon 115 gr +p, and the Winchester Ranger 127 gr. +p+ all made a huge channel and for a instant seems that the gel block jumped in the air. Amazing display of energy!
 

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The Marshall and Sanow study has got to be one of the most Laughable Things I've ever read.

It's based 100% on anecdotal evidence and police reports written by officers likey suffering from mild PTSD.

It makes NO EFFORT to catalog where suspects were shot, what drugs they were on, or what their mindset was (if the shot wasn't to the brain or spinal cord, this is the most important factor).

If you want a one shot stop, carry a rifle. If you find yourself in a defensive pistol shooting, you should be shooting until the assailant is down or you need to reload. PERIOD.

Have you looked at thier one shot stop percentages for other calibers? All the best 9mm rounds according to their "tests" were +P and +P+, indicating that high energy rounds seem to have some extra effect in the real word. But for some reason, .45 ACP generally has higher one shot stops than .44 magnum rounds according to their method.

I applaud them for trying to help people make life saving choices, but their methods have no scientific foundation. I'll stick to my weak 147gr. Rangers and focus on a gentle trigger squeeze with every sight picture. If I ever encounter a situation where 4-8 rnds rapidly placed center mass don't have the desired effect, I'll try for a head shot followed by two pelvic shots with a round heavy enough to penetrate thick bone.
Quoted because this thread needs more "real science" and less marshall and sanow. If someone is really interested in this type of stuff and is going off their data, I hope they're at least reading the critical analysis of their work even if they don't agree with it. Here's a start of a review of their book http://www.firearmstactical.com/streetstoppers.htm

I'd encourage anyone who is new to shooting and wants to pick out a defensive load to read this first http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm then explore the rest of the firearmstactical.com website and google and decide for yourself what you want to carry.

Personally I'm happy with winchester ra9t.
 
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