[Ni3Frontier]

Hey everybody,
  I went by my local gunshop this weekend to get my hands on several handguns that I was interested in.  Overall I was quite disappointed.

  The Sig Pro felt like a loaf of bread in my hand.  The grip is way too thick and rounded.  I did like the Sig P225 though, but I learned that it has been discontinued.  It felt good in my hand but its size would probably not make it any easier to conceal than my P99.

  I also handled the HK P2000.  It felt good in my hand but I did not like the trigger system.  The subsequent trigger pulls were nice and light but the length of the. pull was the same as the double action.  I also did not like the price - $800.

  The S&W Walther PPK/S felt ok in my hand but the plastic parts felt incredibly cheap.  The finger rest on the magazine had obvious mold marks down the middle.  What bothered me most was the double action trigger pull.  It was incredibly heavy.  The gunshop owner also agreed that it was a terribly heavy trigger.  The pull length was fine but the pressure required to pull the trigger back was much much more than the P99 in DA mode.  Is this a normal thing?  Does it just need to be broken in or did I handle a defective piece?

  Sig's counterpart, the P232 was a much better pistol than the PPK/S IMO.  The trigger pull and weight was better as was the fit and finish of the weapon.  The rubber grips were more contoured to fit my hand than the PPK/S' were.  The thing I did not like about the P232 was the magazine release on the butt of the grip.

  The handgun that felt the best was a Kahr.  I do not recall the model name but it was a compact 9mm handgun.  I don't know much about Kahr so I am wary of heading in that direction.  I also did not like their action system.  I prefer the traditional double action (DA/SA).  

  So the more I look, the more I realize that the P99C might be the best option for me.  I already know the workings of it and am comfortable with its operation since I have a full size P99 already.  I hope that I can use my Comp-Tac P99 holster for the P99C - that would be $80 saved.  I hope they come out soon - I'd really like to get my hands on one!

-Yoshi

 

[P88]

Yoshi,

My thoughts are very similar to yours when it comes to the handguns you have described.

I don't know why they have to make the PPK/S with such a heavy trigger. I think it dates back to the German standards of long ago, when they required a 12 lb. trigger pull to help prevent neglegant discharges. I'm not sure why the American made PPK's have to keep this standard.

I too think the SIG Pro is crap. I've seen those grips actually break apart on people.

 

[BreakerMorant]

There is a spring kit available to reduce the weight of the DA trigger pull on the PPK/S. Very Fine grade modeler's sandpaper (the type used by guys who paint figurines) can take care of the mold seam on the magazine's finger rest. -That aside, I don't think the .380 is a great round. -At least for me it was unpleasant to shoot in the bigger PP model. I think you're better off waiting for the P99C.

As for the other guns, everyone has different tastes. I used to know a few guys who shot nothing but HK's. -The thing that surprises me about HK is that their customer service isn't the greatest, their spare / replacement parts availability leaves quite a bit to be desired and they still manage to have a strong, loyal following. -I have to admit, after the AWB sunsets, I'd be curious to see if they market a black, military looking, semi-automatic version of the G-36 to replace their grey SL-8 (which was a G-36 that was highly modified to look different).

 

[Catbird]

I wish someone had offered me this advice:

Don't do anything until you try the CZ handguns!

I am a recent CZ convert after 30 years of collecting everything else.  My first CZ was a P-01.  IMO, this is a very, very nice pistol...more accurate than most of my other 9mms, including my Walther P99.  I then found an excellent local deal from a private party on his 9mm CZ 75B Duo-tone.  One word - EXCELLENT.  I just bought my 9mm CZ 2075 RAMI a couple of days ago and will shoot it for the first time tomorrow.  I have a feeling that this RAMI is going to become my new "carry" gun.

The CZs may not be everyone's "cup of tea", but I sure like 'em.

 

[Ni3Frontier]

BreakerMorant,
I have shot an Interarms PPK/S .380 a while back and it was fairly pleasant to shoot. I dont remember if I shot that one in DA mode or not. But If I'm going to pay $525 for a PPK/S it had better be the way it should be right out of the box. I think you're right; P99C is the way to go - I just hope it gets here soon!
If the G36 is released here...then the next logical step would be to market the XM-8 as well (the rifle under testing to replace the M-16/M4). Unfortunately, I would have to figure out a way to enter them into my collection

Catbird,
I did get to see a CZ compact while I was there. I do not recall the model name. It was a good looking pistol but the grip was about 1/2" too short. It had a finger rest which kept me from putting my pinky underneath the grip. But the grip itself was too short so all my fingers were bunched up and it was not very comfortable to me.

 

[P88]

I kind of like the looks of that XM-8 also. From what I've read so far, it looks like a great weapon.

 

[BreakerMorant]

Quote[/b] (P88 @ April 26 2004,3:51)]I kind of like the looks of that XM-8 also.  From what I've read so far, it looks like a great weapon.

I saw several of those at the Shot Show...  I don't know.  The G-36 is a very well designed weapon and I think the Army should've looked at it seriously before going on an ego trip and bringing the XM-8 into creation.  

The new generation assault rifle that intrigues me is TAR-21 from IMI.  It's a bullpup with an ambidextrous configuration.  It shoots the 5.56 (.223) round and uses AR-15/M-16 mags.  The Indian Army recently committed to a $20M contract for them.  Supposedly, the Israelis are going to use it to replace their aging and worn M-16's.

Regarding the CZ-75, I really enjoyed shooting my friend's.  I almost got one of those a few years back but just couldn't justify the expenditure for myself.  

-Yoshi, on the PPK/S, I agree that it should be right out of the box, but I'm not spending $500+ for any .380 pistol.  The round isn't much of a plinking round and it is an anemic self defense round when compared to what else is out there in a similar size.  -I have friends who love their PP's and PPK's, but for my taste it doesn't appeal to me.  -If you want to get a PP / PPK/S, but don't want to lay out the money, you can get a Hungarian FEG for around $240.  The design lines are very close and they make them in .380 and 9x18 Makarov.  -Their finish isn't as nice, but functionally, I haven't noticed them to be any less capable than the Walther.  Besides popping new springs into a sub $300 gun doesn't feel so grating.  Just a thought...

 

[P88]

Quote[/b] (BreakerMorant @ April 26 2004,4:33)]I saw several of those at the Shot Show...  I don't know.  The G-36 is a very well designed weapon and I think the Army should've looked at it seriously before going on an ego trip and bringing the XM-8 into creation.  

The new generation assault rifle that intrigues me is TAR-21 from IMI.  It's a bullpup with an ambidextrous configuration.  It shoots the 5.56 (.223) round and uses AR-15/M-16 mags.  The Indian Army recently committed to a $20M contract for them.  Supposedly, the Israelis are going to use it to replace their aging and worn M-16's.

Our government seems to like doing the opposite of what others are doing. Personally I think we should have adopted the FAL, but the M14 ain't no slouch either.

So, I'm sure we'll probably end up with something totally different.

 

[ASCI White]

I wish the civvie market would see some of these rifles. I'd love to get my paws on an F2000.

 

[joegerardi]

Quote[/b] (Ni3Frontier @ April 26 2004,11:09)]The handgun that felt the best was a Kahr. I do not recall the model name but it was a compact 9mm handgun. I don't know much about Kahr so I am wary of heading in that direction. I also did not like their action system. I prefer the traditional double action (DA/SA).

The Kahr is a very fine weapon. I have the K40 Elite 98 and it has the nicest DA trigger I've ever shot, and it was that way right out of the box. They're striker fired, much like the P99, and they conceal beautifully. They're built like a Swiss watch, and feel great in the hand. They're weight goes a long way to making recoil comfortable.

Though I've never had to use it myself, Kahr Customer Service gets nothing but praise from those that have.

I'd take a long 2nd look at it were I you. You won't be disappointed.

..Joe

 

[BreakerMorant]

Quote[/b] (P88 @ April 26 2004,5:56)]Our government seems to like doing the opposite of what others are doing.  Personally I think we should have adopted the FAL, but the M14 ain't no slouch either.

So, I'm sure we'll probably end up with something totally different.

The FAL is a brilliantly designed weapon-  I love that you can use one of its rounds as a takedown tool in the field.  In some ways it seemed very forward thinking.  The M-14 was a great gun too, but military doctrine changed to favoring the assault rifle over the battle rifle.  I can see the arguments for both.  -The guys in Somalia bitterly complained about the M16 since their targets were not going down as well as getting back up...

I think you're right about what we'll do-  "What's the right way to do this?  -Screw it, let's do it our way."

 

[BreakerMorant]

Quote[/b] (ASCI White @ April 26 2004,6:10)]I wish the civvie market would see some of these rifles. I'd love to get my paws on an F2000.

You and me both- I wonder how well that forward ejection system works...

 

[NM_P99]

My Kahr Mk9 9mm is my part time CCW pistol.
Very well made sub-compact pistols.

 

[DarthSkeeter]

Love my PM9... just drop it in my pocket with a DeSantis pocket holster, no one ever knows it there... I'll forget at times. I thought I wouldnt' like the short grip, but I don't even notice it.. even when switching from an extended mag. My pinkie just curls under the grip... there's tons to hold on to (I guess that's hard to believe for people just used to full sized pistols).

I saw a great looking used CZ-75B at a pawn shop for $300... man, i wish I had bought it. THat's a great gun. If I can ever scrape the money for a full size 9mm, that'll have to be it.

 

[Airfix]

(Sorry .... don't mean to side track the topic)

I second to ASCI White, the F2000 is one of the best all around bullpup design, it has several innovative features, and looks balanced aesthetically.

 

[Ni3Frontier]

Thanks guys; I will take a second look at the offerings from Kahr this weekend.  They are fairly competitively priced - are any models offered in a DA/SA setup?

  It is rumored that the XM-8 is being considered in a 6.8 X 43mm caliber, developed from the .270. 

  The 7.62 X 51 NATO is a heavy hitting round.  In my experience with my M1A (essentially an M14), accurate rapid fire strings are difficult at any range past 50 yards.  

  On the other hand, after shooting the 7.62 NATO and going to shooting 5.56 from my AR, I often wonder how soldiers have confidence in this round.  This round is very easy to control and tight groups with high fire rates are not hard to achieve, but it sure doesn't feel like a heavy hitter.  

  I personally would like to see the 6.8mm adopted.  I do not know the details of this cartridge other than that it is a mid-ground between the controllability and compactness of the 5.56 and the hard-hitting long range benefits of the 7.62.  

  Unfortunately, many think that this is highly unlikely since the infrastructure for 5.56 is in place and it is a NATO accepted cartridge.  I believe that I heard somewhere that if the US hadn't meddled in it, the 6.8mm or similar would be the NATO standard today instead of the 5.56.

I hope that one day people don't have to keep developing these things though it seems like a pipedream of late.

 

[DarthSkeeter]

All the Kahr's are DAO... they're meant as carry guns, and hence add the safety of the DAO.

The trigger is so smooth and consistent it's really a non-issue I think once you shoot it for a bit. Just like shooting a revolver, but with the bonus of the sleek/slim design and the potential for more rounds than most revolvers.

Plus they're great to look at !!

 

[ASCI White]

My other bitch is Mexifornia's dumb laws. These manufacturers could make a bit of extra cash by making CA friendly guns. Remove that pesky removable mag (see the FAB-10 AR-15 receiver) and it's legal.

 

[DoctorV]

Hi!

I'd like to say a few good words about Kahrs, too. I have Kahr P40 and it is a very reliable small gun. I kind of regret I didn't get K40 (all-steel) to tame .40 recoil. To tell the truth - I don't enjoy target shooting with this gun, I even have to use gloves. But the Kahr wasn't made to be a target pistol - all I want from this pistol is cycle and fire and hit the central mass area - and be concealable. Trust me - concealable it is. It beats my p99 hands down.
Their customer service is great and I had to use it. My gun was a lemon, actually. I don't want to take your time with this story, but they replaced the slide and the barrel and the bunch of other stuff. I have the feeling that only the frame remained from the originally purchased pistol. Somehow the QC screwed before the gun was delivered to my dealer, but they stood behind it firmly and all repairs were made in a week. The bottom line - it does behave now (as somebody mention here) as a swiss watch - sleek and flawless, as it should.
P99 is a fantastic pistol and I love shooting it. But for CWW, if it prints on your body, do not disregard the Kahrs. Just beware the sharp recoil if you want .40, consider the all-steel K models.

Val

 

[Catbird]

DoctorV -
I've had my Kahr P40 a couple of years.  I have made some "enhancements" which makes it a tad easier to shoot well...so I thought I'd pass them along.  

I installed an Agrip to stabilize and cushion the pistol grip in my hand when in full recoil.  It really works quite well.

The top left rear corner of the frame used to hammer my upper thumb joint and eventually break the skin and start to bleed.  With a bit of medium and fine sandpaper, I was able to round out the corner enough to solve this problem.

I installed a set of XS Big Dot tritium night sights.

At one point, my gun was plagued with premature slide lockback (w/ ammo still in the mag).  I went through 3 replacement slide lock levers from Kahr till I was able to get one to function properly. There was a slight difference in them all.

If I ever get another Kahr, it would probably be the PM9 with the black diamond finished slide.