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Good observations, Sam. Thanks for sharing them.

One interesting note to consider here is the simple fact that problems tend to clear themselves up in time. Initial reports come back from the field, additional tests are run, engineers make adjustments, and eventually you have guns on the market that work pretty much flawlessly. For example, when's the last time you heard someone complain about the performance of a new P99? But early on, when the gun was first introduced, there were hints of issues .. and these were quickly worked out.

I personally think that we are going through that same adjustment period now with the PPS and, in fact, that we are getting pretty darn close to the end of it. I also think, by way of proving the point, that the black model PPS we can buy on the market right now is a much better performer than the First Edition models that were introduced more than a year ago.
 

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I meant the saying to be tongue in cheek. Similar sayings exist in many aspects of life and sport.

There are two types of race car drivers. Those who have hit the wall and those who haven't.

There are two types of carpenters. Those who have hit their thumbs and those who will.

And so on. I know many firearms owners (cops and civilians) who have had (and I give them credit for admitting it) ND's. Not a single one of them says, "Yeah, I just knew it would happen to me some day." Instead, they all said, "I never thought it would happen to me. I am always so safety concious."

Most of us never will have it happen. The more careful we are, the less likely the chance we'll have an ND. If it does happen, hopefully we adhered to the other safety rules and we don't destroy something important like ourselves or another person.

Back to the point, my 1911's, my Sig's, my PPK's, etc, do not require me to pull their triggers for disassembly. The Glock design does. People have shot things they didn't intend to shoot with their Glocks when they pulled the trigger during the disassembly procedure.

The Walther PPS Quicksafe helps with this type of ND. Good for Walther. I will not second guess their engineers for adding this very simple step in disassembly.
 

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Oops! I meant to say in the race car driver context, "...and those who will." See! Another unintended consequence. That was a typing version of an ND!
 

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...Back to the point, my 1911's, my Sig's, my PPK's, etc, do not require me to pull their triggers for disassembly. The Glock design does. People have shot things they didn't intend to shoot with their Glocks when they pulled the trigger during the disassembly procedure.

The Walther PPS Quicksafe helps with this type of ND. Good for Walther. I will not second guess their engineers for adding this very simple step in disassembly.
Excuse me, but the lacuna in that argument is that it is not necessary to remove the PPS backstrap in order to field strip the gun.

Some owners who have already encountered difficulties with the flimsiness of the plastic backstrap have opined on this forum that once they have determined which size fits their hand, they do not thereafter remove it.

In my view it is unrealistic to design a gun to protect a user who does not have the discipline to invariably take the elementary (and mandatory) step of checking the chamber, but expect that user to somehow acquire the additional discipline to invariably take a detour through a purely optional procedure in order to disassemble the gun.

M
 

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"In my view it is unrealistic to design a gun to protect a user who does not have the discipline to invariably take the elementary (and mandatory) step of checking the chamber, but expect that user to somehow acquire the additional discipline to invariably take a detour through a purely optional procedure in order to disassemble the gun."

In my view it is very realistic to design a gun knowing that no one is perfect. Anyone who assumes everyone should be perfect has an unrealistic view of human nature. I've seen cocky "no it alls" let rounds go. One of them put a round in his foot. I like to remind him occasionally that he swore he'd never have an ND.

There's nothing better to make one realize that no one is infallible than to have that unintended ringing of the ears....
 

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If you're enough of a cock-up that you have a negligent discharge with a Glock, no design is going to help you, regardless if you have to pull the trigger at time of take down, or not. Personally, the idea that several people out there are fumbling with a (potentially) loaded gun, trying to remove a flimsy backstrap is much more disagreeable than a million people operating their triggers in a safe manner. It violates the same basic tenants of safe firearms handling, as dropping the trigger on a chamber of unknown condition while pointing the gun at something you don't intend to destroy.

The way I see it, and despite what the owners' manual would say (I can't see that little tab on the backstrap lasting forever, the way they say it should be used), that's not even the intended function of the quick safe backstrap: it's to render the gun unusable so lazy people can store it in your sock drawer. It serves the same basic function as a gun lock, without requiring a lock.
 

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Warranties were put into use to protect consumers from manufacturing defects. Lets look at the automotive industry as an example. While attending college in my youth, I worked summers at the Cleveland Ford engine plants. We would build, test & ship an engine every 17 seconds!!! Thats right, one engine every 17 seconds. Our warranty cost on a 1970 351 Cleveland averaged out to be 18 cents per unit produced. In comparison, Pontiac Division of GM was running around $14.80 per unit. These were manufacturing FACTS. Why were Fords cost so much lower? Well, they both had the same UAW workers putting them together. Some guys worked at Ford, others would drive past to the GM plant. So, the worker is a wash. It turned out to be the design of the product that made it a superior unit as it came off of the assembly line. Quality control was every where in the Ford plant. All sorts of expensive automated machines to check all the important things. And an army of inspectors who checked every thing on every engine that we made. That's how they did it. They(Ford) knew that if you built it right to the closest tolerances you could build, there wouldn't be dealer repairs! Heck, there were 32 sizes of pistons to go in the engines! The blocks were all airguaged & checked for roundness & taper every 1/10 of an inch. A computer, primative as they were would select the correct piston for that hole. When it came time to install the pistons, they would be right over the cylinder they needed to go in (in a piston rack from the piston room). I could go on, but you get my drift.

There are warranties for a reason. But the manufacturers do not want to pay to fix something that shouldn't have gone wrong in the first place. I can't think of any parts that failed on my BMW since 1994 when I got it new. The Germans KNOW how to make a quality product and desigh them as such. I've never had an issue with any of my Sigs after 50K+ rounds thru the lot. My Walther PP has never had a failure and I've carried that for 30 years! Point is, these are great guns and I refuse to belive that Walther has design or engineering issues with these pistols. SO, why are there so many complaints about the PPS? Is it related to the caliber? 40 vs 9MM? We should do an informal poll to see if there is any correlation to the caliber of the troublesom pistol. How many of these complaints are really ammunition issues? Would be interesting to find out.

Sorry this was so long.
 

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Steve: The first time I heard this line, it came from a LEO who worked as the primary range officer and firearms instructor for a large metropolitan police department in the Midwest. He was a crusty old guy who knew his stuff, knew his guns, and always said what was on his mind. His observation was based on more than 35 years of experience at the time, and he had seen more than his share of accidents and mishaps and goof-offs -- and a couple of near-tragedies to boot.

I've heard the same line repeated many times since.

I personally find it to be good advice for anyone who carries a firearm, shoots a firearm, or keeps a firearm -- loaded or otherwise -- in close proximity. If nothing else, it's a great reminder of the potential dangers that simply come with gun ownership.

Thanks for sharing it.

I can personally say I fell into this catagory last November when I was unloading my pistol to put it in the safe and my hand slipped and it slam fired,sending a 9mm through my hand.
 

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I can personally say I fell into this catagory last November when I was unloading my pistol to put it in the safe and my hand slipped and it slam fired,sending a 9mm through my hand.
Ouch!

Looking at both the gun owner & motorcycle rider analogies, I have had one of each. I have had a negligent discharge. It was stupid, it was completely my fault and in the 10 years since, I've had a 100% safety record.

I was dropping the hammer because I didn't want to carry my .45 "cocked & locked". It had a decocker, but the decocker made me nervous, so I practiced until I was confident in my own ability to drop the hammer. One day, my thumb slipped. The round took out 4 walls and several inches of linoleum when it ricoched off the floor in the next room. Luckily, that was the extent of the damage.

I laid down a motorcycle on my first day of my rider's class. Seperated my shoulder. I got back on the bike and finished the class, despite the pain I was in. The instructor told the class that odds are, it would happen to everyone at some point. When I did it, he looked at me and after making sure I was ok said "well, you got yours out of the way early".

I've heard the sayings. Obviously, you can't say 100% of people in either category will have a failure, but the odds are pretty good.
 

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I love my new PPS....

My new PPS is starting to remind me of the VW I owned...

I met a great group of people that trusted and loved VW to their core. So, I wanted to know what it was like to own one...

Well, it was different alright... Euro design... nice features that most other "typical" cars didn't have.... but the damn thing broke... 8 times in the first year...

I sold it. Never again will I own a VW, Audi or similar European car...

The PPS resembles the VW in that I've read comments in this very thread that all guns must have issues during break-in because the lustrous PPS does... which is complete horse shit.

I have purchased (3) Springfield XD guns... and ALL of the were flawless from the first shot....

It's like a self fulfilling prophecy for those that will buy anything (including living their entire life trying to be different than the masses) to be different...cars, guns, clothes, etc...

I can respect that... to a degree... but for those who want to live this way and think and try to convince others that all of the masses have the same issues is, well, again horse shit.

I surely hope that this expensive (and pretty) Euro gun that I've bought will "break in" soon... because the trigger just plain SUCKS. I've never shot so bad with ANY gun in my life than the PPS... the trigger is just grainy and hard to pull (at least 12 lbs) and the break is just HORRIBLE....

And the sad part is, I paid more for the PPS than my XDm that I can erode the bulls eye from the inside out and have had ZERO problems with... and will shoot ANY ammo I put through it...

And to think, I bought the PPS to carry... and to trust my life with... and now all I can think about it selling the damn POS... OR, reading this damn forum for hours trying to figure out what the hell is wrong with this gun... OR, maybe I didn't oil it in one of the 1,000,000 specific locations and THAT'S why it isn't operating correctly... must be "user error"....

If anyone is interested in a new condition PPS 40 for a song, let me know... until then, I'll keep reading about how to fix this POS...

And by the way, I called the shop that I bought it from and they suggested that I call Walther and that the warranty should cover any issue I'm having.... yay... :rolleyes:
 

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Great for you, your Sig's must be a number of years old.

Read this thread to see what has been coming out of Exeter the past few years.

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/8071085
I know that they ARE NOT like my older Sig's. That's why my latest pistol purchase was a Walther PPS in 9MM. I never has an issue with my old Walther PP in 380 either. Yet look at the latest PPKs built by S&W!

Everyone is under a big budget crunch these days. Firearm manufactures of mass produced products ,including Sig & Walther are under the gun to make a profit. If they don't, we will have no new pistols. So, some companies tend to rush things thru their manufacturing process. Sig shooters are now complaining about the Nitron finish wearing their slide rails if they are not greased, let alone oiled. And Sig's Nitron finish is just another name for nitro-carbonizing like Glock's Tennifer or Walther's Melonite process. The difference is how well it is done with the level of preparation. The Walther has a much more polished finish than my Nitron Sig. Much better quality on the Walther as well.

I want to purchase a service size 9MM weapon. I have been wanting a P226 Navy for years. I'm starting to think otherwise. Leaning more toward the P99 every day. I look for quality & reliability first and Sig has fallen back in my opinion.

No, I do not want a Glock. Don't care for the feel in my hand. Accuracy isn't up to task. They have a very good reliability factor but that's because they have such large manufacturing tolerances. Don't want a Chrysler, I'll take the BMW! "Hell the old WWII 1911s had great reliability but you had a hard time hitting a building" ~ My Dads comments, 9th Armored Division tanker.
 

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You know, I saw those FN pistols at a gunshow and although they are very nice, I just didn't like the fit in my hand. So much of what enables a person to shoot well is the way a pistol fits their hand. And the Walther just has everyone beat. I really don't catr too much for the P226 grip as it's a double stack and I've had P220s for decades and love the single stacks (NOT INTO 1911s).

But I believe that Sig quality has been degraded by the upper managenrnt people and have second thoughts about them with new pistols.

Think I just kay have to go back to the Walthers! Too bad they don't make a P99 in the military OD green or a coyote brown. Really liked those colors. But like Henry Ford said, you can have one in any color you like as long as it's black will have to do.

9MM, not 40. Don't want another caliber to reload. Have way too many right now.
 

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I'm with M E on the fit of the Walthers. Above all others and every other manufacturer that I've tried, and I've tried a bunch, the Walthers simply fit my hand and eye better than anything else out there.

But I'm concerned about the current management of the parent company and have been for some time now; I don't think that Umarex has, in fact, been a good fit. Like S&W on this side of the pond, other interests have collided with what should be Walther's main mission: designing and producing the finest firearms in the world. Truth be told, I fear that the Umarex mentality might eventually override Walther's primary function. This was first driven home by the introduction of the P22, although the arrival of the PPS made me feel somewhat better. But I'm now equally concerned about the PK380. We won't know for certain until we get them and test them and such, of course, but it sure looks more like a Umarex/P22 than it does a Walther/PPS/P99 to me.

I just hope that I'm wrong.
 

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I'm with M E on the fit of the Walthers. Above all others and every other manufacturer that I've tried, and I've tried a bunch, the Walthers simply fit my hand and eye better than anything else out there.
Same here. Nothing fits my hands like Walther, I think they must have had someone in the design department with hand/arm bone structure that matches mine since the P1 was the P38.
The way Walthers are happy in my hand keeps me looking to them for pistol purchases, from my first centerfire pistol (An arsenal refurb P1 older than I am by a few months) to my CC of choice, to my rimfire point-shooting trainer. The P99c is warring with an XD as a larger capacity CC, and for some reason I've been pining for a .32, so a PP of some kind might be in order as well.



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Dave: I picked up a Manurhin 7,65mm PP made in 1952 in absolutely immaculate condition a year ago from Simpson's for under $400. For some reason, the world hasn't quite caught on regarding the Manurhin guns, and deals can still be found, even at unlikely places. If you don't have one of these gems in your collection and find yourself pining for a .32, it's a pretty good way to go.
 

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My PPS has been perfect for 1 1/2 years and maybe 5000 rounds

I shoot it every time I go to the range, and its accuracy still astonishes me. I DID have to get a shorter front sight; I wasn't aware the Europeans used a different sight picture. Very tight fit on everything. The trigger took a couple hundred rounds to stop being grainy, but it's very smooth, and quite light now.

I had one or two fail-to-feeds in the first 50-100 rounds, and absolutely none at all ever since.

As some have suggested, I've left the small backstrap (which felt best to me) in place always. The gun takes all of 10 seconds to strip, leaving hte backstrap in place.
 
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