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WALTHER KING
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Discussion Starter #9
The effective range defines the effective range of firearms.
It is the distance at which the effect of the gun is still effective.

It is not the distance of the accuracy.

The 9mm x 19mm (9Para) shot out from a MP-L (long)
have enough energy @ 200 meters.
But it is not easy to hit the target.

9x19
Maximum range ca. 1800 Meter
Max Effective, Point ca. 50m for a Pistol and ca 150m for a MP
Max Effective, Area ca 200 - 350 Meter = >85 joules


•Absolute maximum effective range: This the "this round is not considered lethal after crossing this threshold" distance. Neither of the other two common "maximum range" values will be greater than this. Purportedly, NATO defines this as the point at which the projectile's kinetic energy dips below 85 joules (62.7 foot-pounds). This is typically claimed when recounting that the P90's effective range is 400 meters on unarmored targets, as classified by NATO. It's worth noting that while the P90 looks neater than the civilian PS90, the extra barrel length increases the muzzle velocity and thus the civilian model actually has a longer absolute max effective range.

•Maximum effective range on a point target: This is the maximum range at which an average shooter can hit a human-sized target 50% of the time. "Point target" is basically a euphemism for hitting a human torso sized area in this context. If this range were greater than the absolute maximum, the absolute maximum would be quoted (a non-lethal hit may be accurate, but it's not effective).

•Maximum effective range on an area target: This is the maximum range at which an average shooter can hit a vehicle-sized target 50% of the time. In other words, this is the maximum distance at which it would make sense to open fire on a group or vehicle, etc. If this range were greater than the absolute maximum, the absolute maximum would be quoted (a non-lethal hit may be accurate, but it's not effective).
 

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The 9mm x 19mm (9Para) shot out from a MP-L (long)
have enough energy @ 200 meters.
But it is not easy to hit the target.

...
?

That's not a sniper rifle, I know. But body hits on a man-sized/shaped target in selective fire mode are really no problems.

PS.: The official designation in Germany is MPL and MPl (MPK and MPk) used by several German police departments (federal and state police), and afaik MP4 (an abbreviation we never used commonly in Berlin).
 

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Another three-year-old thread comes back to life...

Veto11 is quite right; it is possible to get hits on man-sized silhouettes at 200 meters with a bit of practice (and by observing a few ranging shots). But it's a two-edged sword. The main fault of the gun is that Walther compromised its usefulness with typical Walther target-rifle mentality: the sights are so anti-intuitive and unwieldy (there are actually two sets of sights on the gun -- one a tiny aperture, the other an open arrangement mounted very high with a fussy sight picture) that they confound reflexive shooting at close-range targets --which is, after all, the primary mission of an SMG. Given the fact that the MPL/MPK fire from an open bolt, that level of precision is wasted and counter-productive.

A simple ghost ring rear and a square-post front would have been far more effective.

Just my two pfennigs.

M

P.S. It is little known that the cross-assembly and proofing arrangement between Walther and Manurhin on P.38s, etc. destined for Berlin was extended to include the MPL/MPK. I have seen photos of these guns with Manurhin marks and French proofs, "Made in France".
 

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I'm sorry but necromancer is my second name. :rolleyes:

Shooting SMGs at distances longer than 50m were, at my time, only practiced at the police academy to learn that it is possible. Later the typical distances were 50 and 25m for the selective firing, down to 10m for the full auto parts of our practice.

I can only say I'm familiar with the MPl and the MP5A3 when talking about SMGs. The Walther has a lot of bugs build in by design. The iron sights, maybe, the open bolt, no. We had to practice a lot with both SMGs, I can not say that one was less accurate than the other one.

... they confound reflexive shooting at close-range targets ...
Think you mean quick instinctive, non-aimed shots. Please keep in mind that at the time our Manurhin MPl was "state of the art", we had to practice the (non-) aiming position from the hip... ;)

And yes, the most of our firearms were "Made in France" since 1961 or 1963, I'm not sure about that.
The P1 first generation, The MPl/MPk, the Diana flare gun/tear gas launcher and the Mauser made MG3 were assembled and proofed by Manurhin (the MG42 was converted by them to 7.62x51 too).
Our G3 was really made in France by MAS in license. We still had US made weapons, the 81mm mortar and the 81mm Super Bazooka.

The martial law regulation "no German weapons" was disbanded in 1979 when the first P6 arrived. The teargas and the hand grenades (DM51) were never foreign "assembled" or "proofed" but officially made in Germany.



Sometimes in the mid seventies, the British Sector Commander Brigadier General (?) inspected the barracked special police of his sector.
With kindly permission by the Polizeihistorische Sammlung Berlin.
 

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I suppose if you have had enough live-fire training and keep it up continuously, anything is possible. But I have never been able to hit anything from the hip at any distance greater than a few meters without being able to spot the hits and correct my aim. It's a waste of time and ammunition.

In controlled & measured tests, one usually finds that "unaimed" fire (i.e., without sights) produces more misses than hits, compared to the use of sights. This is at 50 or 75 feet. A person trained to use the sights -- if they are good sights-- will get more hits in vital areas quicker and with less expenditure of ammunition than the person who raises the gun to his hip and sprays: if the latter hits the target anywhere on the first burst, it's a miracle. He might better have used that time for a head shot.

Mind you, I am NOT a professional. But I have spent a lot of time with a PACT timer, silhouettes, and both old classic and modern SMGs. And I have watched other shooters, younger and much faster --including some SF guys who know how to shoot-- run the same tests and the results are not much different. All one needs to do is count the holes, and note where they are.

Maybe surprisingly, at the end of the day the gun everybody praises and nobody complains about is the Swedish Carl Gustav M45b.

M
 

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Sometimes in the mid seventies, the British Sector Commander Brigadier General (?) inspected the barracked special police of his sector.
With kindly permission by the Polizeihistorische Sammlung Berlin.

Just wonder where the pictures is gone and try it again.
 

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Found my old manual, enjoy it!
 

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Found my old manual, enjoy it! 2
 

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Found my old manual, enjoy it! 3

File MP014... Page 13, picture (Bild) 14 shows an absolutely no-go, weak hand holding the magazine while shooting. This practice can cause failures to feed and was corrected later.
 

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Found my old manual, enjoy it! 4
 

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