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Here are pics of a 1950's era Walther Mark II PP in .22, one of the first post-WWII Walthers imported to the USA. Marked made in France, with "France" marked chromed mags, but no mention of Manurhin. And the first gun I have seen with thumbrest grips that was imported before they started being needed to be considered importable, at the end of 1968, with the Gun Control Act.
Here's an ad from the July 1956 issue of Guns magazine:
 

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That's a beautiful pistol; many thanks for sharing it with us, James. I'm not sure that the ad you've provided isn't even more entertaining than getting a look at the pistol, however. How would you like to be able to find those prices today? :)
 

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I have one of the mark II PPK in .22lr (dural frame-superlight). The
grips were marked Manhurin, but marked Mark II Walther on the left
side of the slide. Low serial number probably 1955-1957, not marked
PPK/L as later Walthers were but just PPK. Serial # range 5007XX.

al
 

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The Walther Banner-marked "Mark II" pistols, marked "Made in France", were the brainchild of Samuel Cummings of Interarms, who recognized the superior drawing power of the Walther name. He brokered an arrangement between Walther and Manurhin, principally if not solely for the U.S. market (for which by then he enjoyed an exclusive distributorship) to allow Manurhin to mark the guns intended for export to Interarms to be marked with the Walther Banner. Apart from this special arrangement, under the terms of its earlier license Manurhin had been forbidden to use the Walther Banner. Thus most Manurhin guns both before and after this special arrangement were marked with Manurhin's own name, prominently appended with "Ex. Lic. Walther".

A subsequent agreement was reached whereby Walther received unmarked, "preproduced" PP-series pistols from Manurhin to be completed at Ulm and marked "Made in W. Germany". These were offered by Walther to Interarms beginning in 1961, and the Mark II disappeared. Thereafter Manurhin continued to make PP-series pistols under its own name for France and other designated markets --excluding the USA but including Berlin-- as well as preproducing for Walther.

Twenty years later, c. 1981, when USA production was delayed, Cummings resurrected his earlier idea, and negotiated a supplemental license from Walther that again permitted Interarms to import Walther Banner-marked pistols directly from Manurhin. These of course had to be marked "Made in France", and bore Manurhin's trademark water-wheel discreetly on the bottom of the butt. This went on for a couple years until USA production could fill demand. Thereafter the Manurhin guns (which were more expensive than the US versions) were phased out by Interarms. Manurhin was understandably unhappy and decided to set up its own US distributorship. It also tried to claim a right to mark its guns as "Walthers", but the US trademarks were owned by Interarms. That led to litigation that Manurhin ultimately lost.

Not until a few years later did Walther undertake for the first time (postwar) to produce PP-series pistols at Ulm from scratch. It proved much more costly than Walther had imagined. Prices were very high, sales were disappointing, and German production was soon discontinued.

M
 

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Once again, that's superb information. Many thanks for sharing your knowledge, MGMike.

That sure is a beautiful pistol; wouldn't mind owning a handful just like it.
 

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Another factoid---> Samuel Cummings, founder of Interarms, always had the following statement discreetly added to the bottom footer of his Interarms ads and documents.... "Interarms, a member of the Cummings International Associates Group"....or somesuch.

Do the abbreviation.... Cummings International Associates.... CIA.... yeppers, that was Samuel's stomping ground and employer for many years before he set up "Shop" as Interarms. One area was the civilian market, like importing Walther pistols and Mauser Mark-X's and the like....the "other" and more silent part of the operation was being an international arms merchant for ...let us say.... more clandestine purposes, including his large cache warehouse full of more military oriented stuff in England. The US gov't reportedly used "him" as a private sub-supplier of arms when it was "convenient" to have some plausible denial for US involvement in some other unstable area of the world.

More---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Cummings

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/05/05/world/samuel-cummings-71-trader-in-weapons-on-a-grand-scale.html

BTW...Mike....I see you offering a lot of information as you have here...on the history of these guns. I have no doubt at all that you are correct, but can you sometimes site your reference source, like is done for a professional white paper ....to underscore your welcome points that are made?
 

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BTW...Mike....I see you offering a lot of information as you have here...on the history of these guns. I have no doubt at all that you are correct, but can you sometimes site your reference source, like is done for a professional white paper ....to underscore your welcome points that are made?
It's just something I remember reading somewhere on the internet.

M
 

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Mike...however...It's nice to know whether you are one H%ll of a story teller...or if there is some actual fact behind the points you make. Even in other scholarly sectors, reference citations are often given because fine-points of detail cannot be committed to memory or may be in dispute. Do take my comment seriously..as I am amazed at your encyclopedic historical knowledge.
 

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Mike...however...It's nice to know whether you are one H%ll of a story teller...or if there is some actual fact behind the points you make. Even in other scholarly sectors, reference citations are often given because fine-points of detail cannot be committed to memory or may be in dispute. Do take my comment seriously..as I am amazed at your encyclopedic historical knowledge.
Certainly there is a lot of disputable info floating around forums, however, if these well-educated (self taught, researched, whatever) folks had to footnote everything they share, I'm not certain it's worth their time or the reader of the post. IMHO it might be better for one to question a specific detail if you doubt the accuracy. There are enough scholars on this forum to "challenge" questionable statements when they pop up....again IMHO.....;)
 

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I am not asking that everyone footnote all responses. In the world of Walthers I would suspect there are perhaps only a handfull of known reference books....Dieter Marshalls book, Hoffschmidt, James Rankin's 3 volume tome.....there can't be too many that would make this burdensome. An occasional , "as stated in Rankin's book"...or somesuch quick comment, couldn't hurt....as these stories get told.

Reason?....I've followed the PP/PPK guns all my life and..as one example... the Manurhin/Walther-Ulm relationship was written-up by many gun magazines, each from a respected writer and authority...and they were all different. Mike has a sticky, I believe, that quells all this...but even here how do we know that his version is not just the 4th version out there?...instead of the "correction" of the previously published works by the 3 others that each say something different? Not angling for a fight to have someone "prove" anything....just asking.

Same with the story about Zella-Mehlis at the very end of the war. One gun writer says the factory was utterly destroyed and Fritz Walther barely escaped with a handful of blueprints,...another shows a picture (!)...of a GI standing at the front gate of the liberated factory. Really?...the other guy said the factory was destroyed. Which is it?

So it goes...an occasional reference nugget wouldn't hurt....."just sayin"....
 

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IPSC:

"So it goes...an occasional reference nugget wouldn't hurt....."just sayin"...."

Well said...you gave the most classic examples. Thanks for clarifying your suggestion.....cheers!

*
 

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I would take MGMike's observations on this forum ahead of most anything that I've read elsewhere regarding Walther pistols, regardless of the source -- especially when he disputes an item, even of long-standing. The surce, in this case, is both reliable and dependable.
 

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From the sound of the text that Mike often provides.....I would tend to agree. The question remains ( as I'm new to the forum and to Mike)...what makes Mike's story so compelling?....why is his view seen as being so accurate, even over pro gun writer's views?. Again....not angling for a fight or disputing his facts ( as his info seems both very detailed and convincing), but what credentials of his make his view so good? What vets Mike's view as being so accurate and indisputable?.
 

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IPSC, I respect why you are asking the question, but this is the 'net, not a scholarly journal. Footnoting everything would get tedious and discourage responses.
I'm a student of history, and pretty frankly don't consult the end notes of a cited book very often. History of anything is no more carved in stone than the nightly news. It was subject to interpretation back in the day, and historians aren't immune to a having a point of view, even if they are able to offer citations.
I did like your examples of history being less than consistent.
Moon
 

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This sort of squabble over who is the Giver of Truth illustrates why I don't want to get into it.

Let's just say that I am old. Old enough to have enjoyed a fair share of observation and experience, and I read a lot and study a lot. I don't feel compelled to brandish credentials or to prove anything. Or even to be taken seriously (as some of my recent posts should demonstrate).

This is, after all, just an internet forum, a recreational diversion for its inhabitants. Our folks range from college professors to semi-illiterates whose only link is some greater or lesser attraction to Walthers. The forum is not structured to be a citadel of higher learning, or to provide corrections for Wikipedia, Everyman's authority. That leaves you free as a bird to credit as much or as little as you like to any post that appears here. Nobody --least of all me-- is demanding that you swallow it whole. If anyone is uncomfortable with unattributed or unverifiable information, I respectfully suggest that you've come to the wrong place; for scholarship, credentials, substantiation and footnotes, your time would be better spent reading The New England Journal of Medicine.

And for the comfort that comes from certainty, I recommend the Catholic Church.

M
 

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I will stick with you and Searcher Mike. I like your outlook and I have never been much for footnotes. I have learned more about ppk's from you than anything I have ever read. I guess this is fun stuff here. I did ask on another post how old you are ? I wonder if I have you beat? A certain amount of wisdom does come with age.

I will only answer the easy questions ,and the hard ones I leave up to you and Searcher. Nuff said.
 

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I will stick with you and Searcher Mike. I like your outlook and I have never been much for footnotes. I have learned more about ppk's from you than anything I have ever read. I guess this is fun stuff here. I did ask on another post how old you are ? I wonder if I have you beat? A certain amount of wisdom does come with age.

I will only answer the easy questions ,and the hard ones I leave up to you and Searcher. Nuff said.
I think all three of you gents have an incredible amount of information, and I for one appreciate having access to it! I am curious about the ages represented here as well, but only because not being a youngster myself, I appreciate my age groups contribution of wisdom and experience. Hey...this is fun stuff!

Thanks for being involved with the forum!
 

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Look...it seems I have touched a nerve. Again... I repeat..... I did not say show reference for *every* remark. Yet, that point comes up *again* now, as if I did say that. No...I didn't say that. I said it may be nice to *occasionally* throw us a bone to cite a reference or two at times.

I also entered into the fray, asking my question with ( I thought) politeness and reverence.....saying I respect Mike comments as sounding very accurate and detailed....but simply asking why Mike's comments should be seen as so inviolate. In other words, What are his credentials for making his view trump even pro gun-writers ( who also got history wrong at times).

I frequent other websites with my other hobby interests. Without getting prickly about it, in that group, we (collectively) have an incredible amount of topic knowledge, but the inconsistencies still do show up at times, and we drag out the "books" on occasion to settle the issue at hand. Not a big deal.......

And Mike....methinks you protesteth too much. I am not attacking you....I am not saying that your statements are incorrect. Some of your followers here seem to have picked up on such a thought too...and that is not the case. I feel it is a valid question to ask what makes you so good (or certain) for what you say. Fine....you say you are "of age" and have had both personal and intensive literature experience to support your claim. Your previous remarks seem to have also met the test of time to be true. Fine, again. You've answered the question.

I do come here for enjoyment. But I like to know (and capture for later reference), true assertions as these forums get used in searches for later inquiries.

Sorry for the bother and apparent mis-understanding of my intentions and assertions. I hope this helps clarify. No fight intended.
 

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Great Information!

For the sake of my limited understanding, what year did Walther start distributing PP series pistols with the "Ulm/Donau" slide markings?

Thanks and no citations required!
 
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