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"You took the picture a little off from straight above so I can't really tell what is going on. It does appear that the face of your hammer hook is in align with the area just outside of the hammer pin hole."

Yes, the hammer hook edge is not vertical to the area you mention (yellow line). The angle leans backwards. Indeed, this area needs attention and improvement to achieveing neutral engagement (2 lbs?).

The damage to the pin was done during my attempt to replace the broken hammer spring and kept putting it backwards, since the first P22 diagram I got back then had erroneously pictured the spring the other way around. The swapping made my fingers bleed.

You're right about the need to test further and for that purpose we need several spare parts for experimentation. I can ask Daniel to send you a bunch; my treat.
 

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Discussion Starter #42
Crete

Here are some close ups.




When I look at your hammer hooks it appears the one on the right is doing most of the work. There is wear to the finish where both sear faces hit but when the sear is rotated off the hammer hooks it looks like the near one is doing all the work. I can tell this because not only is the finish worn off all the way to the tip but the tip appears to have considerably more wear. What is out of square? Hammer hooks, sear or wear to the zinc frame where the hammer and sear pins rest.

This is where you have to square fitment up a close as possible. Assemble the pistol at least the hammer and sear with springs and break them apart with either the trigger bar or front arm on the sear. By applying color to one side....say hook face...you can watch to see if removal of the color is uniform or from one side only. If one side then a little material needs to be removed, color applied again and the process begun again until uniform color is removed. Then you still have to have all of the angles and widths correct. Patience Grasshopper.

Sure are some beautiful mountains the Tour is passing through. M1911
 

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Okey.

Now that you mention it the trigger sometimes broke lightly and other times not so.

Then the hammer coil spring snapped and the whole assembly was replaced. In the new configuration the same is true. In a match when all my senses are at a peak I can pick up the slight fluctuation in the way the trigger breaks.

Sometimes it does it @ considerably less force/effort than others.

Last Sunday during the match I could hardly believe how much I had to pull the trigger before it fired. Then again in the following two shots it broke the shots were marvellously and I was again in the X ring. The hard to pull shot was in the 6th ring @ 3 o'clock. Not very surprising, isn't it?

In general, when the trigger breaks evenly (no matter how heavy or light), for as long as it breaks at the same time EVERY time, all is well.

Consistency is more important in a trigger than weight.
 

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The single coil spring seems to be forcing the hammer notches to work unevenly on the left.

A dual tension coil could help keep everything above board.



 

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Discussion Starter #45
I'm not sure that careful sear fitment will even hold up in the long run with the P22. The torsion spring doesn't apply pressure in the center of the hammer. On a pistol like yours with a lot of rounds fired it would be interesting to see if the hammer pin hole has worn more on one side than the other. The sear also is loaded with a torsion spring although a much smaller and lighter one. Walther would argue that this is an affordable plinker. Want a target pistol, we have a whole line of them. There are several things that could be done to the P22 to improve it in my opinion even if it adds $20 to the pistols cost. Trigger bar ears, better extractor, double leg hammer spring, better rear sight.....fatten up the rear of the slide for some sight options. But, if you push the cost of the pistol up much and it has already moved up from $229 U.S. to $350 and with the loss of one magazine.....then sales will suffer. I'd like to see a factory set of recoil springs in different weights for different ammo. What I'm seeing is that the weaker rounds fire 100% with the shorter recoil spring I'm experimenting with. Of course on issue stock pistols will run into is the shorter spring will likely not have the energy to reliably close the slide. Mine does because the rear of the breech block and safety drum don't touch the hammer for 90% of the trip forward. The only time the hammer face rides up on top of the bottom of the breech block is appx 1/4" at full rearward movement and that is when the recoil spring is fully compressed and at it most powerful compression strength. So that works nicely.

I will try to do some photoshop on the picture of my sear hammer to show what I would do to maximize trigger pull. You can take a nice picture of fitment if you simply remove the slide. And of course the sear is not well insulated from spent powder....it is right in line with blowback gases. Plinker, not a target pistol....but that doesn't mean we can't make it better. The question is, just how long will a careful trigger set up last. M1911
 

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Well, the price has gone up and up for no reason I can understand.

Mine was 300 Euros in 2001 and is now selling for 450. Why? So, without any true improvement the price hike is inevitable. Had they taken care of that area with some new and exotic materials available it would have cost 320 Euros and everyone would have one for learning or teaching new shooters.

Mine has been used in first-time-at-the-range sessions a great number of times. Did they hit a thing? No. Did they when I told them how to do it? Yes, Sir.

Can I have titanium sear and/or trigger bar, or/and hammer as extra? I'll get it in a breeze. Made out of steel coated in 95 hardness urethane? Why not?

I like the GSP and the SSP but I can't lift many a Match-grade target pistol for long and I will put it down in a short time, while the P22 is my go-to pistol and is a pleasure to load and empty all day long putting a grin on my face.

That sort of thing is known as fun and the P22 has plenty to offer. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #47 (Edited)


Picture of the sear, hammer hook engagement in stock 2012 Q model. Visually I would call this a very positive engagement. What appears to happen is that as the sear is rotated counterclockwise the primary face rides against the tip of the hammer hook. Very safe....not the lightest trigger and quite a bit of creep. Pretty good at self cleaning though. I will also point out that this hook face angle is different from previous hammers. Walther is experimenting here and while they are at it how about removing the tip from the hammer face. :) On this hammer if a line were drawn down the face of the hook and across the center of the hammer the angle of the hook would pass appx 1/3 across the hammer pin hole. Earlier versions have the same line passing outside of the hammer hole which means the hook face is laid back more toward what would be a more neutral engagement. You would have to know the exact geometry to know prezackly what is going on. I'm working on that and have pretty close measurements and a drawing but as MG Mike might says....we are working on something that doesn't have this kind of quality built in to begin with.



You can see this P22 setup is somewhat similar to the old school M1911 sear set up except for the secondary escape angle on the bottom of the sear. What is happening here....and with not only real steel but mim'd parts as well is the primary face for the sear creeps across the slightly rounded tip of the hook. In eliminating creep the hook height is reduced as well as the width of the primary face. Of course the 1911 is a different animal with a very powerful .45 caliber round which makes the pistol really recoil and unless a light hammer is used this pistol can get into additional issues with hammer bounce. None of which are good for a safe pistol. Still, a smith or skilled hobbyist with proper stones and jigs can create a very good trigger. The latest scheme is to stone the primary sear face in a circular shape that fits the true radius of the sear (dotted line). The radius is less than 1/2" if I remember correctly so this takes a pretty well made jig. Nothing like this exists for the P22 nor do any external pins that fit into the frame on the exterior which makes fitment easier without assembly, reassembly with each careful stoning. Final fitment needs to be with the assembly installed in the pistol and fitting tested with dykem blue or some other color on the bearing surfaces. Notice that the entire sear primary face is not engaged by the tip of the hammer. This creates less movement of the sear (creep) across the tip of the hammer hook.



The angle of the hammer hook face is what I was illustrating with these previous pictures. This is the new Q model hammer shown above with the positive engagement hook. Here I have rough stones it to the angle of previous hammers.....and I have it on good authority that Walther has changed these hook shape angles over the years and that the hammer/sear are fully hardened throughout. The stock hammer had an sear face that if a line were extended along the face, it would pass well into hammer pin hole. Appx 1/3 across the front width. Older hammers have the angle shown by the line above. This older line appears to create a more neutral engagement. Better for lower trigger pull...not necessarily better for creep. Creep depends on the amount of distance the sear has to move before releasing the hammer. Some sears have what some shooters call a very smooth "roll" . With this if I understand their comments correctly, the sear moves across the hammer hook with a consistent and very smooth trigger like a ball bearing was on the end of the sear. :p Or something like that.



Shown above is the stock angle across the hammer pin hole, the line of a neutral engagement and a line for negative engagement which is where you can get an unsafe trigger. Avoid that one. Again, to optimize this you would have to have the original drawings showing the geometry or do some careful measurement and determine your own. In the end, you must fit the parts together, see exactly how they fit, test the trigger, final fit with dykem blue, pistol assembled and then wonder how long all this careful fitment will last. In any event it is necessary that both arms of the sear engage the two hooks on the hammer squarely and with even pressure. MG Mike says the fitters are the highest paid workers in the assembly line. Hmmmmmm....how does he know that? Old walther engineer and fitter I'm telling you. I can see him on the line now with "all" the tools for having fun. :) That would make him about 108 years old though...:eek::D But I digress....



I'm going to photoshop the picture above, since it is the best one I have of an older, like 7 years ago, neutral sear. With lines I will show what I would do to create a better trigger with very little creep. This one is stock and the powder is moly that you see. Had I known I was going to use this picture for this...I would have wiped the moly off. I don't have a camera that is good enough for better pictures. These were taken with a $100 Canon and then cropped. Best I can do until I get a better camera with a big sensor and better lense. As you can see above if you look close the sear and the hammer run right along the side of the frame. I'd install these parts without springs, install the frame halves with screws tight and test rotation to make sure neither is binding. Precise fit is good, binding or dragging is not. This trigger has about a 3 lb pull, has some creep you can feel. Is stock but well used over the years. I'm guessing 20,000 rounds. Has moly on it and that helps. The hammer spring has probably weakened a bit as well as the sear spring. It is reliable and safe and now has a recoil spring with 4 coils clipped. But that is for another issue. I might rework it one day per the last picture below.



This is what the trigger job might look like to minimize creep and give a crisp trigger break. Of course all the safety test would have to be made and all the parts fitted for uniform engagement. My two cents on it. Remember...I'm a back yard mechanic not a trained gunsmith. :D Just applying what I'm learning from the net and experiments on my own. All I want from Walther are new parts to play with. you can't put metal back on these parts. Sides Crete needs some new stuff for his shootin iron...er...I mean zinc. If anyone has a problem or sees a danger don't hesitate to jump in and comment. The note up top should say - Lightly break this edge. This is after the damaged and worn edge of the top of the hammer hook is re-stoned for even height and a nice edge. Don't lower the hooks too low or the second one might catch the sear stopping hammer fall and damaging your sear work. Don't carry with the sear resting on the safety (half cock notch) either. Carry hammer down. I don't mean to imply carry for self defense....I wouldn't recommend this pistol for that...I mean carry back and forth from the range. M1911
 

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Discussion Starter #48
Back to your post; I like this line:


1917-1911M: "I would really like to see a loop hammer spring developed for the P22 similar to the SR22 spring. That would eliminate the sharp spring sticking out the rear of the pistol and I think put a more even spring pressure against the hammer instead of off center and on one side as the present hammer spring does."

Yes! That's what Daniel needs to ask the Walther P22 designers to work on.
Oops, I was wrong on this one. The SR 22 does have a double leg spring with a centered loop that activates the sear in SA or some similar part. I don't have one of these and haven't taken one apart either. The hammer springs actually consist of a two compression coil spring set that resides for the most part inside the rear of the hammer. Cocking the hammer compresses these springs....somewhat similar to a 1911 except the springs are in the hammer and not in the grip. This may or may not provide a mechanical advantage but it does shove the hammer forward from a central point and not off to one side like the P22 hammer spring does. The trigger spring on the other hand is a simple torsion spring like the P22 hammer spring but of course is much lighter. M1911
 

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I'm looking at the hammer hook and (wait for it), it looks like being negative.

There is no good light for a pic now but I will try my best again tomorrow.

I might go as far as to disassemble and replace the 2nd hammer with the old one and at the same time do a comparative jobby out of it.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
With good light and the slide off you can take a pretty good picture of fitment in the pistol. Both sides hammer hooks are exposed. What you can't do is take a picture from straight out. You have to do that with the left side of the frame removed. To better see fitment with the frame apart you need to remove the hammer spring and sear spring. This is because the hammer spring applies quite a bit of pressure and in the process wants to pivot the hammer pin a bit in its hole. removing the springs allows you to press the parts together without having to worry about this. I know, I do all of this by myself and you can't hold spring loaded parts, get the proper angle, light, focus, etc. without a great deal of difficulty...so make it easy on yourself.

Straight out from the side and we can analyze what your angles are. If Walther has changed the geometry of the sear and hammer pin location, sear length, etc. I'm not aware of it. I know the hammer hook face has been changed. Positive, negative, neutral...it all depends on the layout geometry and I haven't received my copy of Walther's original P22 drawings. They should get here any day though....:D Unfortunately I don't have any CAD skills either, not even any programs for such. I did find 1,000 rounds of .22 ammo last night and another 500 rounds I had put up and forgotten about. Federals....should have given them to my brother in law with the new PPK/S that he wouldn't let me shoot instead of a bulk box of RGBs. Just didn't know I had it. M1911
 

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Discussion Starter #51
Crete, if you have a pull gauge...the first thing to do is measure how much pull it takes to rotate your hammer from full down to just cocked. A trigger pull gauge, electronic one that is will treat the click of the sear just like a trigger break. 8 lbs of pull required on a new spring. I have no idea what that is in stones, or Greek coins, Euros or metric whatevers' that you guys might use for measurement. That will tell you about the condition of your hammer spring. At 6.5 lbs...I get light strikes. M1911
 

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8Lbs = 4 Kilograms or so.

I need to find a 5 kilo brick or something similar and hack off a kilo to use as a measurement gauge.

Maybe a bag of books or magazines would do.
 

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Discussion Starter #53
Double Torsion Springs | Custom Design & Mfg | Spring Works Utah

Crete the type of spring we might want is called a double torsion spring. Above is a link showing some of these springs. The two in the top row look like candidates. Square spring wire is the best wire as it compresses better over time and the windings should begin in the middle and work out and the working direction of the spring should be in a direction to reduce the center coil. One like the top row, third spring over is very similar to what would be required. I don't see any shelf inside the existing hammer so the spring would have to stick out the rear of the hammer but at least it would be a smooth loop and impart pressure equally on both sides of the hammer. Springs like this cost appx $1 if we can find some of the right size and weight.

Wonder if I can use the tuners on my old Martin guitar to shape some up? M1911
 

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My understanding is that Walther's tension springs were manufactured in S. Korea and they made a boo boo w/them. They had to be remade as they were off specs.

My take on this is to send a sample to Utah and ask them to make a run with a double loop that meets the criteria of the factory original and then sell them as a replacement extra P22 accessory.
 

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Discussion Starter #56
The first part of your statement....you aren't supposed to know that and second you aren't supposed to post it. You are in big trouble now. :p:D

The second part...good idea. :) M1911
 

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Discussion Starter #57


Crete, there is your hammer spring stuck in an old pistol. Once upon a time Walther knew how to make things work. Double shock absorbers too.... :) M1911
 

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Blame it to downsizing and South Korean built-in parts obsolescence.

YES! Walther used to know a thing or two in the dim and distant past.

Now, Italian match pistol maker Pardini uses a similar (but improved design to those by Walther), slide shock absorber it its Rapid Fire pistol model and collects Gold in most high level RF sport events.

 
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