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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
My new P22 has a 4 lb 4 oz SA trigger after all the polishing I did. The sear/hammer cocking notch is stock but polished. A stock Ruger is 2 lb 4 oz and an old P22 is about the same. I'm sure the springs have weakened in both over the years. Any ideas on this. What I wonder is....do the parts have adequate Rockwell hardness to hold a fine edge?



Above is the fitment of my stock hammer notch and sear. It seems I have quite a bit of positive engagement with the hammer and sear all the way down. This is where the hammer actually presses the sear further into the notch. This is the safest adjustment and will rotate the hammer slightly rearward upon pulling the trigger. Neutral is where the face of the sear and face of the hammer notch are flat against one another. This creates a lot of creep. A negative sear is one that slants away from the hammer which would allow the hammer hook to slide down the face of the sear. This one is not safe. The positive fitment above seems excessive. Several gunsmith articles I've read recommend that the hammer hook only reach half way down the face of the sear........of course 90% of what you read about are 1911 sears. lol Every firearm has a sear. There doesn't seem to be much on Walthers that I can find except GSP and some target one and they are so complicated they don't even compare to the simple P22. Anyone have a good smithing book on sear engagement, especially Walthers?

The position of the sear has to be looked at as it rotates across the top edge of the hammer hooks and not just sitting as above. Initial trigger pull will rotate the sear up, press the hammer back a bit........then the important part.....how does the sear fit against the hammer as it approaches release. Is the above positive, negative or neutral. I need some good pictures. I bet MG Mike and some others are up to speed on some of this although I'm sure he would think this is not worth the effort on this pistol. :D



Shortened hammer hooks to match top of sear, raised sear for the above picture of hammer resting on edge of sear. Notice in top picture how much they overhang the sear. I need a better camera, better eyes and a German PP or PPK. I can't tell is this is positive, negative or neutral. There is no creep at all.


Looking for any advice. Not recommending anyone else dig into this. But, this is the kind of stuff I enjoy doing. I could weaken the hammer spring. 8 lb new...at 6.5 lb you will get light strikes. The one in the old gun is at 7 lb now. This is recording the amount of pull it takes to cocker the hammer. I say cocker because the proper word gets four stars.

Any good internet links....or am I on my own? :) M1911
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
I should have called this " In Search of the 2 lb Trigger"... :p This is going to be hard to accomplish. So hard, I went back with a fresh battery to check the old P22. 2 lb 14 oz. Not cleaned. Well, that is close and no effort was made to reach 2 lb other than the usual spit and polish.

The new gun....it takes 6 oz to 7 oz to pull the tirgger against the trigger spring only. Even more as I continue to wind the spring but that is complicated by running into the sear and it's spring. Mine currently takes 1 lb and 10 oz to wind the trigger spring and rotate the sear out of the way of the hammer....no hammer spring installed. This of course is all very smooth. To reduce trigger pull impacted by these springs the trigger bar spring will have to be over wound just a bit to reduce its pressure while still allowing 100% function. Then the sear spring will have to be over wound to weaken it a bit but still function 100% also. Still working on sear and hammer fitment. Have a positive sear at present which is safe but actually presses the hammer rearward a bit before breaking.


Off to get a jewlers loupe so I can see what is going on. These parts are tiny and my eyeballs aren't too good after the big oak limb hit. :cool: M1911

2 lb trigger.....looking pretty doubtful.



You can at least see fitment pretty good on a P22, it isn't hidden with the slide off.



You can even remove the left side of the frame for a better look. Can't do this on many pistols. You have to have a jig with the correct size pins for looking at fitment.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
A little weakening of the trigger bar spring ( overwinding, just a bit too much) and the pull drops from 6 to 7 oz to 2 oz. Weakening the sear spring just a bit ( there is no scientific method for this except trial and error and the final trial won't be until a lot of shooting is done) anyway 1 lb 10 oz of pull to release the sear....no hammer spring installed, has dropped to 1 lb 2 0z. 1/2 lb trigger pull reduction....hammer spring not installed. Pulling the hammer back to SA requires 6 lb 10 oz of pull, down from 8 lbs. I wound it a little tighter to weaken it a bit. New ones are really stiff.

Pistol back together. The trigger spring is just a little too light. 20% of time no DA. Turn pistol over....use a little gravity...100%. Will have to fix that next time around. Trigger pull is right at 3 lb. Varies 1 oz up or down. Haven't fired the pistol to see if the sear reliably catches. Right now it is back in the safe, hammer cocked, thinking about how it should get down to 2 lbs. The trigger is very good, much better than 4 lb 4 oz.

Parts buffed on 2,000 grit emery. Didn't get out the Dremel. Don't know if any polishing compound would help or not. Foam ear plugs sure make good buffers for dropping the hammer. Just stick one in the slot just behind the firing pin. The hammer left a good indentation on a spent round. Will test fire later.

Have a good rest of the weekend everyone. Can't let this thread go without one more pic.



The top of the expanded tabs on the mags press up the mag disconnect. The bottom catch on the steel mag lock. I like to polish them both with some 600 to 1500 grit emery paper or polishing stick. Don't file them down.....just polish them so they don't scratch anything. M1911
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Checking tonight.... 8 oz to compress the trigger spring all the way to sear drop.....hammer strut disengaged.

13.7 oz to compress the trigger spring and the sear spring all the way to the rear with the hammer held back by thumb. The other 2+ lbs must be in the sear/hammer notch fitment. Haven't worked on that yet other than buffing. Don't know exactly what to do there. Hope some others chime in on trigger pull and age of pistol. :) M1911
 

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Discussion Starter #5


Took some careful measurements tonight and this is what my hammer/sear fits like. I have another one where the sear is flush with the hammer hook. Neither has been modified except on this one I lowered the hammer above the sear..dashed line, didn't change the angle of anything. The other pistol is old and has a slightly lower trigger pull. Neither creeps. I wonder what is the intended design here???? From what little I know the one above is the correct fit....a flush hammer/sear usually has creep. The moly powder may be stopping that. Comments, ideas..???? M1911
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)


Oops, in search of the 2 lbs trigger I decided to make sure the end of the sear was square, then change the 103 degree stock angle to 93 degrees. Hopefully this would lower the trigger pull while keeping the pistol safe. Above I created a very unsafe angle. The sear could ride up the face of hammer and accidentally fire. You don't want to be less than 90 degrees from my limited understanding. And, if you have moly powder on your hands you will drop your digital camera, apparently Canon makes pretty durable ones.



93 degrees is what I was aiming for. So, back to the stone for a little more careful stoning.




Not to take anything this pistol throws at me I began an effort to reach the 2 lb hammer. Everything is polished; rear of trigger bar legs that engage sear, bottom legs of sear where the bar engages, trigger spring weakened to 3 oz of trigger pull against it alone, sear spring weakened a bit, 8 lb hammer spring weakened to 6 lb 10 oz. Stock 103 degree sear/hammer angle has been re-stoned to a 93 degree angle. The pistol reassembled, lubed with moly and the trigger pull is now 1 lb 4 oz. This is a bit too light..but sure feels good. I can't force the hammer forward with my thumb when cocked, I can't shake, bang, tap, beat on a piles of books and make the hammer trip. How it will function when shooting is another matter. First I will shoot tomorrow at my range and measure trigger pull. Then I will put in another new sear spring...measure that. Then a stock hammer spring, measure that. I'm still aiming for 2 lbs. Before beginning work on the sear/hammer but after weakening the springs trigger pull was 3 lbs. Lyman digital. I'll shoot some tomorrow and see how it functions. Better safe than sorry. Pictures of process above and no I don't have a sear or hammer jig. Just have to work carefully, check for squareness, assemble, photo, blow up where I can really see it. 6x magnifying loupe helps some but isn't powerful enough.

Walther didn't send me those classified sear hammer drawings. They knew I'd post em I guess. This is work on a couple of critical components and can create an unsafe firearm. So, let me get this sorted out before anyone else might dig into it. M1911
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Well, all's well that ends well. No pistol parts were destroyed in the making of this thread and more importantly....no parts were lost or left over. :D



Put the correct sear spring back in, assembled the pistol. Above is the 3 pull avg. There is a big creep at 1 lb 10 oz. After that be ready for just a little more pull for it to break. Almost like a two stage trigger. The break is very sharp and clean but at this weight....you don't really feel it much. What I mean is...you feel the creep then just a small amount of increase pull drops the hammer. After the creep....be on target. I'll have to decide if I like this or not and how well it holds up. In the meantime I am going to order a Brownell sear and hammer jig. I will say the hardness of the hammer was pretty impressive. I was thinking it might be softer. I did a Rockwell hardness test one time of a bunch of P22 parts but don't remember them anymore. Old thread somewhere on the net and a P22 somewhere with indentations in various parts.

Old foam ear plugs make great snap caps....;)



Pistol back together. Originally this pistol did not have any trigger over travel. After the mods...it did. So I added a overtravel stop. This is very similar to the amount required on my '09 pistol which my sister has borrowed and has no intention of returning. :) Removal of material from the hammer notch and sear lets the hammer move forward/up when cocked. My previous efforts to free the slide from the cocked hammer were undone.....but very barely so. The cocked hammer now drags very lightly under the breech block. I'll save that for another day.

So what is next? See how I like this set up, see how the trigger pull and sear/hammer work holds up, see if the 6lb 10oz hammer spring keeps giving reliable firing pin strikes or if I need to install a new 8 lb spring, polish the hammer face to clear the bottom of the breech block. I will be the only one firing this pistol for a while. Now to go do some shootin. M1911
 

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You are doing good work on this, my friend. One can only hope that the engineering Waltherites in charge will take a good look and fix the issues for future generations, seeing as how the P22 continues to be the company's No. 1 best-selling pistol.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
You are doing good work on this, my friend. One can only hope that the engineering Waltherites in charge will take a good look and fix the issues for future generations, seeing as how the P22 continues to be the company's No. 1 best-selling pistol.
:p Hey, I'm doing my part. Not sure if I'm helping or not or just causing a lot of confusion. The latter probably. The 2 lb trigger pull would be too light for the general public in my opinion. I'll settle for some properly polished trigger bar ears. Now to get my hands on one of those new Zinc PPK/S models. Mark should send me one....that's what I'm thinking. :D M1911
 

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... MGMike ...would think this is not worth the effort on this pistol.

...
Absolutely and positively correct. But I do immensely enjoy your drawings.

M

P.S. An excellent article illustrating the principles of hammer/sear geometry appeared in the February 1972 issue of Guns & Ammo, written by one Lewis K. Davis.

But the very best published source for anyone wanting to understand and perform trigger work are Jerry Kuhnhausen's incomparable shop manuals, particularly his two volumes on the M1911. They are chock full of dimensioned drawings, and these manuals really are in a class by themselves. This is not information one will find free on the internet; one must (gulp!) buy the books.

No, there is not one specifically on the P22. He didn't waste the time...
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Absolutely and positively correct. But I do immensely enjoy your drawings.

M

P.S. An excellent article illustrating the principles of hammer/sear geometry appeared in the February 1972 issue of Guns & Ammo, written by one Lewis K. Davis.

But the very best published source for anyone wanting to understand and perform trigger work are Jerry Kuhnhausen's incomparable shop manuals, particularly his two volumes on the M1911. They are chock full of dimensioned drawings, and these manuals really are in a class by themselves. This is not information one will find free on the internet; one must (gulp!) buy the books.

No, there is not one specifically on the P22. He didn't waste the time...
Thanks MGMike, I will look for those. There is precious little on the net that I could find regarding sear work....with exception of the 1911. That pretty much seems to be the beginning and end of sear work. I knew we had some experts around. :) M1911
 

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Discussion Starter #12
After shooting this weekend the pistol was 100% and the uncleaned, un-relubed trigger now has a 2 lb 4 oz. pull. Still has the same creep. The over travel JB Weld was adjusted for very little over travel at the time of installation and hasn't changed. Not too important on the P22 but my carry has the same over travel set up and that one isn't set as tight tolerance wise. When I pull the trigger on that one.....I want it working. It too tested 100% this weekend.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
But the very best published source for anyone wanting to understand and perform trigger work are Jerry Kuhnhausen's incomparable shop manuals, particularly his two volumes on the M1911. They are chock full of dimensioned drawings, and these manuals really are in a class by themselves. This is not information one will find free on the internet; one must (gulp!) buy the books.
Oh yeah, they are there in pdf format. Mr Kuhnhausen's information on the 1911 is absolutely amazing. He left out one thing I wanted to know though. How prezackly the slide serrations are cut. I am reworking an old 1911....the works, will need hammer, sear, barrel, bushing, extractor, links, pins. I am finding that re-filing the slide notches is a bit tricky though and can't seem to find the right file. It doesn't seem to be a 90 degree cut set on an angle or a triangular file. I'm a member at 1911 org and those guys really dig into the 1911s also.

I was going to have my slide re-rolled but the fellow that did that for $3 per letter passed away. I wonder what happened to his tools? I wouldn't mind having them. His crew did beautiful work and somehow he had collected original roll dies and prancing horse stamps. He was an expert from what I could see on correct polish and blueing for the various years of the M1911.

I think I will sum up Jerry's info regarding the 1911 sear and as it might apply somewhat, very loosely and kinda to the P22 and what might be done to the design there following his excellent guide. He even knows the proper terminology for sear and hammer surfaces. Good things there and good information. If you have an interest in 1911s....this is the guy. Thanks again Mike.


Can't find any links to the '72 article though. M1911
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Working on the sear/hammer hooks lets the hammer come forward as you move the hooks rearward or shorten the sear.....even with minute amounts of material removal. This in turn undoes my previous work on the bottom of the breech block and safety drum. The hammer is lightly dragging again. That is fine, the pistol runs 100% but I decided to rework the sear just a bit since it had a bit of creep in it.

While studying all this sear geometry and especially on the M1911 which is what almost 100% of sear links are about........I came across an interesting thread at Pro 1911. These guys are all gunsmiths and while discussing original designs, modified designs, how a 1911 hammer hook should be squared, hook height, jigs for sear primary face, where to start for squaring the face and then where to cut the secondary angle...what was safe, how to know when you passed that point. In one of the drawings explaining all of this there was a CAD drawing showing the geometry in detail....then a light bulb went off in one of the guys head and he developed a true radius jig for stoning the primary face to the true curve of the existing radius. Brownells now sells them for $60. He stoned a number of sears for the other guys and turned their pistols for them. Everyone was duly impressed...kind of a fool proof method.

So, I made one for the P22 and then undercut the bottom edge. The creep is gone, the trigger is very smooth with a sharp release. The problem is the weight dropped from 2 lb 4 oz to 1 lb 10 oz. The trigger is safe, can't make it fail. Actually it takes pulling the trigger. I will shoot this awhile, order a couple of new hammers, sears, sear springs and hammer springs and refine my efforts.

I did make a drawing to scale of the layout of the hammer pin, sear pin, hammer and sear. I measured everything carefully. Will post that too. Hope you guys have as much fun fooling with your P22 as I do. Was also digging into my LCP in regard to some problems cropping up with the extractor hooks breaking on some. Mine has 3,000+ rounds and not one issue so I was trying to document how a 100% pistol looked, ammo to extractor fit etc. Came across an odd situation in that the extractor tip holds the round tightly in the chamber by pressing on the slanted portion of the rim rather than the valley in from of the rim. This causes a large gap to exist between the rear of the cartridge and the breech face. This doesn't seem right. Picture below. M1911



Fully locked slide and barrel, LCP has a browning lock, but notice the position of the extractor hook on the round and the gap between the rear of the round and the breech face. The round is fully chambered. I tried several different types of ammo and all fit the same. Kinda weird I thought. MGMike might be able to shed some light on this. For some reason he knows far too much...I haven't figured out where he is coming from but like I say....He knows far too much about firearm manufacture, ammunition, the problem with general study on just one pistol where variances may differ slightly from firearm to firearm. He might be one of the old Walther engineers and fitters from about 1930....:D
 

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1917-1911M,

Q1: How is the extractor behavior affecting the trigger pull weight?

Q2: Have you proposed to CARL WALTHER GmbH (via Daniel) about making and offering a 2Lb. trigger as an optional extra?

A 2lb trigger and a little practice could turn a P22 into a Match model, in which case sales will increase two-fold as a cheap match pistol alternative in these financial meltdown Times.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
1917-1911M,

Q1: How is the extractor behavior affecting the trigger pull weight?

Q2: Have you proposed to CARL WALTHER GmbH (via Daniel) about making and offering a 2Lb. trigger as an optional extra?

A 2lb trigger and a little practice could turn a P22 into a Match model, in which case sales will increase two-fold as a cheap match pistol alternative in these financial meltdown Times.
I'm not sure the extractor plays any part in regard to fire control components. What have you got in mind? The only thing I've noticed over the years regarding the extractor is that when the slide closes and the extractor tip is pressed against the right side of the chamber.....any lateral play in slide to frame fitment is take out on the left side as the extractor causes the slide to be pressed to the right. Which, is why I see a lot of pictures of the rear sight adjusted slightly to the left and not centered on the top of the slide. At least that is my thought on it.

Hammer/sear......????? Not too many ideas there.

Daniel asked me to keep him up to date on my sear/hammer work. The problem here is there are too many variables, all I can perhaps accomplish is a concept that works. As you are aware, change one part....you change the functional relationship of about half a dozen other parts.

For example.....every new trigger spring I've ever measured requires 8 lb of pull on my Lyman digital when I loop a string through the hammer hole and pull the hammer until it is cocked. The gauge senses this as a trigger drop and works quite nicely.

Then there is the issue of over winding the trigger spring to weaken it. I have found that once over wound...you cannot unwind and have it return to an 8lb spring. There might be some heat treatment but this is beyond my knowledge. All I can say is that a just under 7 lb spring is one where you over wind it, reinstall, and with the hammer all the way down, sear deactivated but in place and with the rear of the hammer spring against the rear of the hammer, the long leg if placed inside the frame will lightly press against the inside of the frame, very lightly. I have nothing to duplicate that except careful trial and error.

2 lb trigger an option? I can't even get em to polish the trigger bar ears properly. :p I did sent all the information I developed on the extractor to VQ and asked them to make us some extractors...and they did. Probably the most likely source would be Wolff making some springs. I contacted them years ago...when the springs were breaking. They weren't interested. I would really like to see a loop hammer spring developed for the P22 similar to the SR22 spring. That would eliminate the sharp spring sticking out the rear of the pistol and I think put a more even spring pressure against the hammer instead of off center and on one side as the present hammer spring does. I'm not an engineer though, just seems it would be a better set up with two coils doing the work which would place less stress on both as opposed to one coil handling the whole load. Same for the sear spring.

I'll put up some pictures of sear work concept.... Cheers. M1911
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I'm retiring.....my pistol smithin pretty much sucks. So does my shootin. :(



10 round groups from 21' RGB..... In between being old and shaky and can't see anymore due to something...perhaps my diabetes...as usual, didn't hit the bulls eye even once. Somewhere in shooting a 100 to 150 rounds the trigger went south....big delay between pull and hammer dropping. Shots started going everywhere. Like I said, when you work on one part...you affect the operation of other parts. What the heck, hammer won't release properly...feels really gritty....then I noticed that my JB weld over travel stop was the problem. Filed that off and things went back to my normal crummy shootin. I need a red dot on this thing. How are you supposed to see the rear sight, front sight and target?

Oh yeah, sitting in an easy chair...I guess that counts for off hand, at least I wasn't resting on something and I did have my eyes closed to even it out. Anyway, trigger pull with dirty pistol was still 1 lb 10 oz. I'm thinking about taking up rifle shootin from 21'. Bet I can group then. :) M1911
 

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1917-1911M,

Twenty-one feet, or 7 meters, shooting?

I have never done it.

I only shoot 82 foot (25m) targets.

I don't see the point of testing anything at 7m other than sighting-in a red dot optical sight or laser sight.

IMPORTANT: The aiming is never done by placing the rear sight and the front sight in focus (nevermind the target). It is impossible. End of story. Parallax takes over and messes things up.

The trick is to look (with both eyes open wide), at the front sight only. Concentrate at the tip of the front sight and vaguely align that with the rear notches and let the target be fuzzy/hazy -- not in focus.

Only the edge of the front sight ought to be in sharp focus and placed at approximately the same aiming area every time. This is the only known method I am aware of that eliminates parallax (which is the chief cause of inaccuracy with open/iron sights).

Also, hold the pistol comfortably so as to roughly stay on the aiming area as long as possible (this is commonly known as follow-up-the-shot), after the shot is fired. Just freeze while squeezing the trigger and allow it to jump on its own while keeping it there. It is easier to do than to describe here with words.

The target stays blurred. Period.

The rear sight is just a rough guide. Period.

The top edge of the front sight (approx. 5mm max. in dia.), is everything. EVERYTHING. It is as important as trigger control and then some.

Back to your post; I like this line:


1917-1911M: "I would really like to see a loop hammer spring developed for the P22 similar to the SR22 spring. That would eliminate the sharp spring sticking out the rear of the pistol and I think put a more even spring pressure against the hammer instead of off center and on one side as the present hammer spring does."

Yes! That's what Daniel needs to ask the Walther P22 designers to work on.
 

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1917-1911M,

Twenty-one feet, or 7 meters, shooting?

I have never done it.

I only shoot 82 foot (25m) targets.

I don't see the point of testing anything at 7m other than sighting-in a red dot optical sight or laser sight.
.
My 2 Pf...

This forum caters to sport and defensive shooters. With handguns, a target shooter needs to be proficient at 25 yds or m or even 50 yds or m, but 7 yds is an ideal distance for proficiency in defensive shooting. It's what even the FBI uses for training. There can be major differences in POA/POI between target distances and self-defense distances, so it can be useful to know how your gun/ammo combo will perform at different distances. Personally, I don't spend my time shooting my target pistols at 7 yds, but I also don't shoot my carry pistol at 25.

If you shoot a potential bad guy who is 25 yds away from you then you're not defending yourself, and you're probably going to jail.
 
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