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Discussion Starter #21
I suspect that Walther's QC may not control/measure frames such that quite a few are OK and some are not. At point of sale, one could reject pistols where one can see/feel trigger drag on the frame. The luck many have an OK PPQ, others who are not so lucky have something quite different.

1911 with parts each having a clear function are usually straight forward to maintain. However, if a 1911's frame has errors, all bets are off.
 

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I suspect that Walther's QC may not control/measure frames such that quite a few are OK and some are not.
Same as every other manufacturer of any given part on any given pistol if we're speaking of one-off issues.

This is the first time I've ever heard of grittiness coming from the frame. You mention the frame, so I'm assuming you've pinpointed the area of the frame that the grittiness is or was coming from. Please let the forum know exactly what two parts were rubbing together to get this amount of grittiness in your friend's pistol, and why. Pictures would be even better.

This isn't a widespread issue by any means if there is only one report of it occurring. It wasn't even on your pistol, so how do you know for sure that the original owner didn't do some modifications to it himself to get a better trigger, especially if he is a competition shooter? I keep reading on this forum about how people immediately alter parts after buying the pistol and sometimes ruin the pistol and/or make the pistol unsafe, and the majority of people who report doing so here aren't even competition shooters.

Most of the reports of pistols with gritty triggers here on this forum come from people who open the box, put a box of ammunition through it, if that, and then come on this forum to make a report of it. I rarely, if ever, hear of pistols developing a gritty trigger as the round count rises, and in the vast majority of cases, it goes away when lube is added to the firing pin block channel. My own PPQ had a gritty trigger when new. Lube and use fixed the grittiness, and by "use", I mean the grittiness went away completely at around a thousand rounds.
 

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I'm one of those who Balance references that made modifications to my pistol before even firing it live for the first time.

When I received it from my FFL there was no question that I was going to need to make some modifications so the trigger would be acceptable to myself for competition.
However, thanks to this forum and others, the needed and proven modifications had already been documented by others. I knew before purchase that what was needed, could be accomplished with a small additional expenditure and some time on the bench.

I made them, and am satisfied with my Q5SF trigger and action as it now is.
There is no grittyness, and after 1500 or so rounds, I am happy to report that my trigger is the best striker fired trigger I have ever fired.

Tomorrow is it's 4th match day and I'm looking forward to it.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Balance: see #16 for many details. The 4" 9mm PPQ-M2 had had no modifications whatsoever out-of-the-box. Initial trigger action was satisfactory to owner.

To repeat for the benefit of "balance:" The factory, unmodified trigger (part touched by trigger finger) was rubbing on the frame on both sides of what I have called the trigger hole within the frame. Over time, that rubbing contributed to the "impossible" grittiness of the trigger action. Additionally, "impossible" grittiness was augmented by the dimple in the trigger-bar rubbing against the frame. Even with the original trigger present, moving the trigger-bar slightly away from touching the frame reduced grittiness and, when the trigger-bar was removed, it was clear that the outside of the dimple was worn and that a rough part existed on the frame where the dimple had scratched. Parts within the sear housing appear also to rub against each other, but their contribution to grittiness is uncertain.

Relief of both sides of the trigger-hole (with polishing) and polishing of the area rubbed by the dimple was effected. Trigger and trigger-bar from Apex was substituted for factory trigger and trigger-bar (after verifying that the new trigger was not rubbing against the sides of the trigger-hole).

It is possible that striations on the old trigger could me polished-out and that one might use Teflon (R) tape to reduce the tendency of the dimple to scratch and thus to reuse the old trigger and trigger-bar.

My opinion is that most of the 4" 9mm PPQ-M2 pistols keep acceptable trigger action and that some do not. Others have noted grittiness. QC could catch frame anomalies and a design that moves the trigger-bar away from the frame (as is common on other striker fired 9mm pistols) would go a long way towards further reducing unhappiness with long-term trigger action.

It is simply not true that 4" 9mm PPQ-M2 triggers all improve with use.
 

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Trigger bar is metal - yes. Trigger bar seems to be pushing hard against frame. It looks as if the moving parts just above the trigger are plastic and rub against each other. Oil on them seemed ineffective. Plastic against plastic looks like it exists at top of sear housing along the side of the horizontal spring.
As a test, I slid a piece of paper between the trigger bar and the frame and a second piece of paper between the rubbing plastic at top of sear housing. Result was smoother trigger action. This after cleaning surfaces as well as possible.
It is possible that the moving-against-each-other parts above the trigger are steel - will check with magnet. Still, the trigger itself (part touched by one's finger) shows significant rub marks where the trigger moves against the frame.
Thanks for ideas and assistance. . . .

The plastic trigger does rub against the plastic frame (you called it the trigger hole where the trigger is inside the frame of the gun). After you pull the trigger you can see the scratch marks on the trigger where it rubbed against the plastic frame. That was a concern of mine too.

I just purchased a new Walther PPQ SC and will see how that trigger feels since it's brand new and pretty much the same trigger configuration. Even with my new PPQ SC I can see that the trigger rubs against the hole in the frame where the trigger comes out of the inside of the gun. There already is some scratching where the trigger rubs aginst the frame opening.

I cleaned my PPQ M2 4" 9 mm with some spray cleaner that had acetone on it and I'm thinking that it may have affected the plastic parts of my frame and trigger in the original PPQ M2 4" gun's trigger. Won't make that mistake with the new PPQ SC.
 

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this is the PPQ forum not the PPS forum. Just keep the discusison about PPQ's please

Since I don't own a Walther PPS pistol I have no idea how that pistols trigger relates to the PPQ pistols trigger.

It's confusing enough in this PPQ forum when we have so many versions of the PPQ pistols. Let's not add to the confusion by adding discussions about the PPS pistol too. Thanks.
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Finally, since it is a SD gun I do not expect it to have trigger as smooth as a target pistol. If anyone s expecting the kind of smooth eery are not going to get it in a PPS M2.[/QUOTE]
 

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The channel that the firing pin resides inside should not be lubricated

Same as every other manufacturer of any given part on any given pistol if we're speaking of one-off issues.

should you not keep the firing pin channel free of oil to keep it from accumulating gun power residue over time. I lightly apply oil to a cleaning patch and then rub some very lightweight oil on the firing pin spring. But I cleaned the channel with some CLR and dried it with a cotton "Q Tip" and then reassembled the striker firing pin. Maybe I'm wrong but I think that the firing pin channel should be kept clean and dry and not oiled a lot. In fact that trigger sear releases and then the firing pin is released so how would that affect the trigger pull?
 

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The factory, unmodified trigger (part touched by trigger finger) was rubbing on the frame on both sides of what I have called the trigger hole within the frame. Over time, that rubbing contributed to the "impossible" grittiness of the trigger action.
My PPQ has scratches on the sides of the trigger. I'm assuming that most of them do after reaching a certain round count, but my pistol has a trigger that is as smooth as glass.

Had many rounds were put through the pistol before the trigger became gritty?

We've been discussing gritty triggers on this forum for years now, and the areas of friction that could cause grittiness have been pinpointed over time. When I see a report saying that it is coming from another location, I get genuinely curious. I'm just trying to get as much information as possible here so that if someone else ever asks the same question or has the same issue, we have more information to give them at that time. I've never heard of the sides of the trigger causing grittiness. Most of the time the issue comes from the firing pin block/firing pin block channel. Here's a thread from 2012 that discussed the issue, and a fix:

https://www.waltherforums.com/forum/ppq/24647-ppq-butter.html

should you not keep the firing pin channel free of oil to keep it from accumulating gun power residue over time.
The firing pin block channel is different than the firing pin/striker channel.

But to answer the question, generally speaking, any and all surfaces of parts that ever come in contact with a live cartridge should be kept dry. The striker channel should be kept dry to stop carbon from building up and slowing down or stopping the striker and causing light strikes and/or failure to fire malfunctions.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think that the firing pin channel should be kept clean and dry and not oiled a lot.
Yes. It should be kept dry.

I've heard of 99-series pistol owners that have encountered light strikes and malfunctions after not cleaning the striker channel after as little as 10k rounds. I'd recommend taking the striker assembly out of the pistol (which is extremely easy on this design), and cleaning it every few thousand rounds. Keep it dry afterwards, as that area of the pistol does not need any lubrication, and lube in that area would just attract more carbon buildup.
 

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My opinion is that most of the 4" 9mm PPQ-M2 pistols keep acceptable trigger action and that some do not. Others have noted grittiness. QC could catch frame anomalies and a design that moves the trigger-bar away from the frame (as is common on other striker fired 9mm pistols) would go a long way towards further reducing unhappiness with long-term trigger action.

It is simply not true that 4" 9mm PPQ-M2 triggers all improve with use.

I have two PPQ M1 models in 9mm. Their triggers were never gritty, and they have only got better with thousands of rounds through them.

You have posted the first time I have ever heard of a PPQ trigger getting worse as the round count increases. I don't think there is a difference between the M2 triggers and the M1 triggers on the PPQ series. Anyhow, I would like to hear from others if they have experienced their PPQ triggers becoming gritty with use because that sounds extremely odd to me. The PPQ has been out for many years now and this seems to be a unique situation with your competitor's gun.
 

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My opinion is that most of the 4" 9mm PPQ-M2 pistols keep acceptable trigger action and that some do not. Others have noted grittiness. QC could catch frame anomalies and a design that moves the trigger-bar away from the frame (as is common on other striker fired 9mm pistols) would go a long way towards further reducing unhappiness with long-term trigger action.
It is simply not true that 4" 9mm PPQ-M2 triggers all improve with use.
In comparing my Q5 with many other shooters with a PPQ, I have found the above to be true. Some come with good triggers and others don't.
Mine has been back to Walther twice, first time they replaced the gun and second time the fire control.
I finally gave up and with the help of "Imaoldfart" got it fixed. I had to get a black striker block and different spring. That finally cured it.
 

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Mine has been back to Walther twice, first time they replaced the gun and second time the fire control. I finally gave up and with the help of "Imaoldfart" got it fixed. I had to get a black striker block and different spring. That finally cured it.
So the fix for the gritty trigger on your pistol was cured with a firing pin block.

It doesn't seem like your pistol started off great, and then was getting worse as the round count increased.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Slight relief of trigger "hole" in frame seems to have cured the grittiness due to trigger scratching on frame when the factory trigger was pulled.

No issue with firing-pin's block was detected. Firing-pin's channel was not touched.

Next time that I see the subject PPQ-M2 9mm 4", I will look/feel for changes.
 

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Hello.
As competitor to competitor.
Nothing will help except springs replacement. This is per Walther Shooting Team.
If you want a better trigger… get Apex.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Changes to springs probably will change the amount of force required to trip the sear, but the issue here is grittiness of the trigger action.
Having replaced a PPQ-M2 4" 9mm factory trigger and trigger-bar with an Apex trigger and trigger-bar (for an IDPA competitor) I noted no significant change in force required nor (once the "hole" and side of frame had been dealt with) any grittiness. Competitor told me that in competition the change in trigger (other than elimination of grittiness) was not even noted during competition.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
PPQ-M2 4" 9mm with trigger and trigger bar replaced with Apex kit AND with slight opening of the frame's trigger hole was shown to me by competitor. The Apex trigger has a much shorter "pre-travel" than the stock trigger assembly. However, in the Apex short pre-travel, one can still feel some grittiness after many rounds shot. A careful look at the trigger/frame interface suggest that one side of the trigger is probably not rubbing on the frame, but the other side of the trigger is rubbing on the frame and resulting in grittiness. One can see light scratched on the trigger on the afflicted side.
Competitor may let me remove the Apex trigger and eliminate the trigger's interference with the frame (on one side) come a lull in competition.

Once again: experts here have indicated opinions about trigger feel - I am reporting on what is seen with one particular PPQ M2 4" 9mm pistol. It is reasonable to extrapolate that others might have the same symptoms due to the same cause.
 

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Some of those metal parts are right next to plastic parts

Jack, the little dimple in the trigger barely touches the frame, unless the trigger bar is bent/warped. As for all the plastic parts, I'm at a loss, the trigger bar is metal, it's guided rearward/downward by the trigger bar guide, which is metal, the trigger bar contacts contacts the single action lever, which is metal, the single action lever contacts the single action sear, which is metal, the single action sear contacts the striker. The sear housing is plastic, but you're not moving anything in there, just releasing as the trigger bar contacts the single action lever. Oh, and the trigger bar contacts the FPB......

I'm betting all you need is a drop of lube on the trigger bar where the trigger bar guide rubs. And a drop on the FPB.

Heck, go crazy with the drops....anywhere the trigger bar makes contact with the frame or the side of the sear housing.

The Trigger itself is housed inside the plastic frame of the gun. There is plastic on plastic rubbing. Right at the top part of the plastic trigger the outside edge of the trigger can rub against the frame where there is a hole in the frame. I can see scratch marks on the trigger where it rubs on the frame itself. And if the metal dimple runs along with the plastic housing of the frame it can rub a grove as the man said.
 

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The Trigger itself is housed inside the plastic frame of the gun. There is plastic on plastic rubbing. Right at the top part of the plastic trigger the outside edge of the trigger can rub against the frame where there is a hole in the frame. I can see scratch marks on the trigger where it rubs on the frame itself. And if the metal dimple runs along with the plastic housing of the frame it can rub a grove as the man said.
You're right, the left side of the trigger does make contact with the opening in the frame. And, if the frame has any casting/molding flash that wasn't cleaned up, it can result in those little imperfections rubbing on the side of the trigger shoe and leaving scratches....you'll also be complaining about a gritty trigger.

I actually covered the fix for this a few years ago. I used a little piece of 400 grit 'sticky backed' sand paper. stuck it to the trigger shoe and pulled the trigger 30 times or so....imperfections gone, along with the gritty trigger feel.
 

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You're right, the left side of the trigger does make contact with the opening in the frame. And, if the frame has any casting/molding flash that wasn't cleaned up, it can result in those little imperfections rubbing on the side of the trigger shoe and leaving scratches....you'll also be complaining about a gritty trigger.

I actually covered the fix for this a few years ago. I used a little piece of 400 grit 'sticky backed' sand paper. stuck it to the trigger shoe and pulled the trigger 30 times or so....imperfections gone, along with the gritty trigger feel.
I used your method on both a Q5 Match and a PPQ SC and it worked a treat! Both guns are heavily used and some grittiness was raising its ugly head. Your trick eliminated it! Both stock triggers still have the longer take up that I’m sure many competitors don’t like. But I don’t mind it at all as pull weight and general “feel” are the most important to me. I also tried three different Apex triggers in my Q5. And the Apex folks were very responsive and helpful. But I ultimately went back to the stock arrangement as no matter what trigger they sent me, while reducing take up.... they all increased the triggers pull weight slightly which I didn’t care for at all.
 
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