Walther Forums banner

41 - 60 of 308 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,227 Posts
Discussion Starter #41
Steve: Put on your thinking cap. Why is the spring bent?

M
Mike, I believe the spring is bent due to a function of two factors.

A) The safety plunger is too small in diameter for the tunnel in which it resides. This gives it considerable "wiggle room" side to side/up and down. There is a lot of "play" to the plunger when it is in the tunnel in the slide, and this is likely allowing the entire apparatus to tilt when the safety drum is rotated. Over time, the spring will become bent behind its connection with the plunger as it's rocked back and forth.

B) The safety plunger is manufactured too short considering this play. The laws of angles and vectors takes effect here... a short pin in a loose tube will have a much greater amount of displacement vs. a longer pin because the longer one will have a greater distance between the contact points within the walls of the tube. At the end of the deflection from the portion extending from the end of the tube, the shorter pin will have a much greater vector angle vs. the longer one. I'm not sure how else to describe this constraint.

I feel like a rude student disagreeing with the wise professor when I disagree with your hypothesis the detents are machined out-of-alignment with the tunnel cut into the slide of the PPK in question. I replaced the firing pin/safety cylinder in the slide sans plunger/spring/extractor piece to reposition it and took the best pictures I could "down the tube". Observe:



A bit closer, best resolution I could muster:



It's difficult to see, but the detents in the cylinder align very well with the spring channel. Mind you, there is still a bit of side-to-side "slop" afforded to the cylinder due to the tolerances of the safety pin through the cylinder, but I believe this is taken up when the safety plunger assembly is replaced in the slide. I believe it's much like reaming a pre-pilot drilled hole; the reamer will follow the hole no matter if the reamer is offset from the hole. In this case, I think the plunger will align the safety cylinder and take up the side-to-side play.

Of course, I may be completely wrong in all regards but don't think so. I hate to be arrogant and disagree with a true master, but my eyes, fingers and tiny mind tell me otherwise.

Perhaps the best bet is to hope for the ability to secure new parts. Should this be the case I will definitely swap them out and try a new approach. And if it works, this thread will turn to an experimental one. My current safety cylinder will be remachined with slightly deeper "fire" detent, my plunger will be remade out of hardened carbon steel to a diameter much more closely matching the tunnel. The "slop" in the tunnel is most definitely a factor in this problem which seems to be creeping up more and more as we discuss it.

-Pilotsteve
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,148 Posts
Steve, rational ideas all; how about just trying the deepening the dimples part and see what develops? Maybe only change one thing at a time?

Do we have any idea of how common this 'safety' issue is?
Moon
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
I've seen a lot of talk about modifying the dimples, but not one post detailing how we should go about doing it, only that we should be "really careful" when we do it.

I hope my parts come today. I need to get this thing tested ASAP. I've had a few awesome trade offers and I don't want them to get away!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Safety Problem solution

I have a ppk/s that while firing would decock as the slide came forward. The safety would move from the firing position to halfway to the safe position. I researched this problem ( here old threads ) and corrected it. The solution for me was to remove the safety and make the divot on the safety shaft plunger deeper so that the spring loaded pin has a better seat. The divot can be seen with the slide off the pistol looking at the far end of the safety while in the safe position. They wear out with use and need to be freshened up sometimes. Bear in mind this repair was done after I replaced the extractor spring and still had problems.

A small drill 1/16" or a abrasive head dremel tool will make the divot deeper. I have had great results doing this. Remember a small amount of material at a time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Hello everyone, this is my first post here after being redirected here from the calguns gunsmithing forums. I recently inherited a Interarms Walther PPK/S from my uncle and im having the exact same issue with it, I have no idea how much it has been fired or how it has been used. I'll wait to hear how replacing the parts goes but in the mean time can someone post some links to places that sell these parts for me? Thanks for all the hard work in this thread, I'll be following it very closely.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
I have a ppk/s that while firing would decock as the slide came forward. The safety would move from the firing position to halfway to the safe position. I researched this problem ( here old threads ) and corrected it. The solution for me was to remove the safety and make the divot on the safety shaft plunger deeper so that the spring loaded pin has a better seat. The divot can be seen with the slide off the pistol looking at the far end of the safety while in the safe position. They wear out with use and need to be freshened up sometimes. Bear in mind this repair was done after I replaced the extractor spring and still had problems.

A small drill 1/16" or a abrasive head dremel tool will make the divot deeper. I have had great results doing this. Remember a small amount of material at a time.
A picture would help. It's still unlcear to me where you're suggesting we drill.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,227 Posts
Discussion Starter #48
A picture would help. It's still unlcear to me where you're suggesting we drill.
Pictures to come tonight, Guy. I'll make it so things are very clearly labeled.

...Do we have any idea of how common this 'safety' issue is?
Moon
It sure seems to be popping up a lot lately, doesn't it? I suspect a common Google search for, "Help! My PPK flips the safety on!" might be redirecting people here, which would be fantastic. More members = a greater wealth of knowledge shared (hopefully)! I will also be addressing the safety cylinder problem with an update to this thread in the near future... with a video of my safety cylinder in the gentle jaws of the Craig vice in the Bridgeport as a centerdrill gently removes a small amount of metal from the offending detent (after indicating it into true center, that is). This along with thoughts shared and images shown of carbon steel chips flying away from the collet lathe as I machine a copy of the safety plunger pin. More on this later, rest assured my friend.

I have a ppk/s that while firing would decock as the slide came forward. The safety would move from the firing position to halfway to the safe position...

A small drill 1/16" or a abrasive head dremel tool will make the divot deeper. I have had great results doing this. Remember a small amount of material at a time.
Barry, same exact problem as mine, but NO NO NO!!!! on the Dremel idea! Do NOT bring a Dremel within 10 meters of any part of your PPK/S! You do not have the mechanical accuracy nor rigidity to do the job properly with bare hands and whirring steel. You are asking... begging to ruin your Walther if you do. You need the right tools to do this properly, and a Dremel is exactly the wrong tool unless you can profess expertise in gunsmithing, and even then it's a very long stretch.

-Pilotsteve
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,148 Posts
He's suggesting that you deepen the two small divits what the safety plunger engages—one divit while in the "safe" mode, and the other when in "fire."
Exactly. And the answer to the question of 'how much material to remove' is 'just enough'.

Fully concur with Steve that a freehand dremel is a really bad idea. I made the repair with a freehand electric drill many years ago and got away with it, but a drill press and a solid rest for the safety drum are a much better idea. It surely makes removing 'too much' a lot less likely.
Steve, you're far more a machinist than I, but I think I'd just let the drill self center in the existing hole, since you feel the alignment is good. You're just freshening it, not moving it.
Moon
ETA-
I'm not sure there is Jameson enough in the world to steady my nerves enough to free hand the job today!
M
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,914 Posts
Mike, I believe the spring is bent due to a function of two factors.

A) The safety plunger is too small in diameter for the tunnel in which it resides. This gives it considerable "wiggle room" side to side/up and down. There is a lot of "play" to the plunger when it is in the tunnel in the slide, and this is likely allowing the entire apparatus to tilt when the safety drum is rotated. Over time, the spring will become bent behind its connection with the plunger as it's rocked back and forth.

B) The safety plunger is manufactured too short considering this play. The laws of angles and vectors takes effect here... a short pin in a loose tube will have a much greater amount of displacement vs. a longer pin because the longer one will have a greater distance between the contact points within the walls of the tube. At the end of the deflection from the portion extending from the end of the tube, the shorter pin will have a much greater vector angle vs. the longer one. I'm not sure how else to describe this constraint.

I feel like a rude student disagreeing with the wise professor when I disagree with your hypothesis the detents are machined out-of-alignment with the tunnel cut into the slide of the PPK in question. I replaced the firing pin/safety cylinder in the slide sans plunger/spring/extractor piece to reposition it and took the best pictures I could "down the tube". Observe:

...
It's difficult to see, but the detents in the cylinder align very well with the spring channel. Mind you, there is still a bit of side-to-side "slop" afforded to the cylinder due to the tolerances of the safety pin through the cylinder, but I believe this is taken up when the safety plunger assembly is replaced in the slide. I believe it's much like reaming a pre-pilot drilled hole; the reamer will follow the hole no matter if the reamer is offset from the hole. In this case, I think the plunger will align the safety cylinder and take up the side-to-side play.

Of course, I may be completely wrong in all regards but don't think so. I hate to be arrogant and disagree with a true master, but my eyes, fingers and tiny mind tell me otherwise.

Perhaps the best bet is to hope for the ability to secure new parts. Should this be the case I will definitely swap them out and try a new approach. And if it works, this thread will turn to an experimental one. My current safety cylinder will be remachined with slightly deeper "fire" detent, my plunger will be remade out of hardened carbon steel to a diameter much more closely matching the tunnel. The "slop" in the tunnel is most definitely a factor in this problem which seems to be creeping up more and more as we discuss it.

-Pilotsteve
Steve: I am not a "true master" of anything, just an avid and long-time observer. My experience has been that if one can solve a problem like this one by replacing parts, that is usually the best and most cost-effective way to do it.

I do have few thoughts to share on your photos.

1) Your extractor cut and spring tunnel look pretty ragged. Are you sure that the bore of the hole is smooth and both exits are properly deburred?

2) Probably the "slop" you've noticed is not because the plunger is too small or too short, but because the hole may be oversize. The plunger should have a smooth, perfectly conical tip that is definitely pointed but blunted just enough so it doesn't prick your finger.

3) There is an unwarranted assumption that the safety drum always sits as deep into the slide as it will go. But its position is also influenced by the firing pin, the ball (or "knuckle ") of which seats in the safety drum. When the slide is fully assembled and the gun is fired, the safety drum may not be in the same position as you have photographed.

4) It is really impossible to isolate the source of the problem without access to dimensioned factory drawings. The best one can do is eyeball it, and my view of your photos remains unchanged: the wear on the plunger and the swaging in the funnel-like portion of the detent hole (not the smaller "iris") is predominantly up on the slope of one side, not in the center.

5) If you are determined to remove any metal, begin by just cleaning up the displaced area, and do it only on the lower detent hole (the one the plunger engages with the safety "OFF"), and try using a new plunger. If you go too deep, you may find that it then requires excessive force to put the safety "ON". (Then you absolutely MUST replace the safety!)

M
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,227 Posts
Discussion Starter #52
More photographs and visual aids.

Here are a few more pictures of the parts in question. Here is my safety spring/plunger/extractor piece tunnel in the slide. There are no obvious burrs or deformations.

From the ejection port side:



And from the hammer side of the slide:



Here is a better explaination of the detent in question, and an easy method of viewing it without taking the slide apart (which really is no big deal). One merely needs to field-strip their PP-series handgun, invert the slide, and flip the safety lever to the "Safe" position. This rotates the safety cylinder and allows the oft-offending "Fire detent" to become visualized. It is this detent which should be securely catching the safety plunger which resides in the slide. Observe:



When the time comes this weekend (when I have the time) I will be posting a detailed walkthrough of what I'm going to do in an attempt to clean up the wear on my safety cylinder. At this point I have nothing to lose... my PPK has become unreliable and with the safety flipping on at random times during operation I cannot be made to trust it. I will probably start by machining a device to secure the safety cylinder in the machinists' vice out of softer metal than the cylinder itself (aluminum) so as to not crush or deform it. I will then ensure the vertical alignment of the safety detent and clean it up with an appropriately sized ball-nose endmill. I will not remove any more than .13mm (approximation: .005 inches or five thousandths) of material to start with before testing the PPK again with one hundred rounds of hard-hitting 95 grain Independence ammunition. If it makes it through this test, I will consider it "cured" as the safety has usually been flipping itself partially on after only a magazine or two.

I will also provide accurate measurement data. I'll provide the diameter of the "tunnel" in the slide, the specifications of the safety plunger, and perhaps even the angle of the conical portion of the plunger if I can get the optical comparator to work (it needs a special bulb).

-Pilotsteve
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,227 Posts
Discussion Starter #54
There has been a call for observations of the same part in question in the German-made PP series of handguns and rightly so. After all, should we not consult Mama in this dilemma?

So far, this problem with the safety flipping on when firing seems to be mostly an Interarms/Ranger produced phenomenon. Curiosity peaked, I brought out my (Ahem... my girls') PP and took the slide off in order to see the "fire" detent in the safety cylinder. Mind you, this pistol is as sweet as a lemondrop on a hot sunny day and the safety lever surely "clicks" from safe to fire as it should. Zero instances of mischief with this pistol, and so far only one jam/failure to eject/jumbling of spent brass/fresh cartridge in the ejection port (due to cheap ammunition) in this Art-Deco masterpieces' life in my (Ahem... her) hands.

Here's the "fire" detent of a German-made Walther PP. It appears a bit different than the Interarms/Ranger model, doesn't it? A bit deeper? A bit less ovoid in shape? I may have a bit too much lubrication in there, but surely you get the gist of it... observe:







Hmmm... I may drill after all. Damn those 'Krauts and their perfection...

-Pilotsteve
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
153 Posts
Due to the nature of the design maybe some ambitious machinist will add another "detent", thereby doubling the holding strength......

Roboslug
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Since I have time, I decided I'd shoot a video of the play between my safety drum and my hammer. I suspect this is the cause of the safety movement. Can anyone confirm with their operational PPKs that this contact is normal on these pistols?

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,638 Posts
That's normal. If it's not....all of mine are broke. If something is loose (as in the detent system, drum or slide tolerances)...that motion will surely roll the drum/lever down when it returns to battery. Under recoil...tries to roll it up. Under return-to-battery, tries to roll it down....which is exactly what you're saying...I understand. I think it's doing it because the drum is not secured for any of the reasons we have discussed. I did not look closely at all of mine, but my IA 32 was handy and I see the same parts interaction in it.
 
41 - 60 of 308 Posts
Top