Walther Forums banner
41 - 60 of 87 Posts
Sorry, I meant to thank you for watching my videos Pilotsteve, I appreciate it.

As to the ejector stopping the mag, they only come in contact if you force the mag all the way up inside the gun, which is an unusual thing to do or to have happen while firing the gun. Under normal conditions they're never going to come into contact with one another. Even if they did, I see nothing wrong with it, that ejector is plenty beefy enough to handle it. The aluminum slide rails are more delicate and prone to damage than this ejector is. It's designed to take abuse popping those cases out of there. I would not describe it as delicate.

I'm afraid your response to this and the other perceived dangers involved are an overreaction.

I really thought there might have been something to your criticisms at first, but I've double checked it and I stand behind this modification {sarcasm on} that I came up with entirely on my own {sarcasm off} (right after I stole it from Walther).
 
... Even if they did, I see nothing wrong with it, that ejector is plenty beefy enough to handle it...

I'm afraid your response to this and the other perceived dangers involved are an overreaction.

I really thought there might have been something to your criticisms at first, but I've double checked it and I stand behind this modification {sarcasm on} that I came up with entirely on my own {sarcasm off} (right after I stole it from Walther).
Since I am one of over-reactors who thought --and who still thinks-- this idea sucks, I will offer a few comments.

The P5 and P5C (and practically all Walther pistols I can think of offhand) are designed so that the upward travel of the correct magazine is stopped and positively limited by contact of the floorplate with the bottom of the grip frame. The mag lips do not touch either the underside of the slide or the ejector; with all the slack taken up there is always at least .020" clearance. This is intentional. It prevents damage to the magazine lips or the ejector from overenergetic insertion of the magazine (plus slapping the floorplate to make sure) and also prevents the magazine from dragging on the slide when it cycles and slowing it down, causing feed stoppages; this can occur if the shooter is using a cup-and-saucer grip or using any kind of rest for the butt. The only time the lips of the correct magazine can come into contact with the slide is during takedown, when the slide is dismounted without first removing the mag.

If you think you stole your idea from Walther, you are not a very attentive thief. The photo of prototype P5 fitted with a P38-TYPE mag catch (P1A1) discloses that there is NO excess protrusion of the mag, and that the floorplate is still acting as the mechanical stop. If a P.38 magazine was used in that gun, the grip was lengthened to accommodate it, or --more likely--it's simply a standard P5 mag held in with a different catch in a modified frame.

As for your assertion that the ejector is strong enough to take upward bending impact for which it was not designed (it was designed to absorb rearward compression impact): at the very least that is unproven. It's just a thin stamping with a long neck. Why abuse it and --even more vital-- ding up the feed lips of the magazine? There are reasons why Walther went to such pains to maintain that clearance.

Pilotsteve's modification is amazingly precise; once latched, it positively replicates the factory clearance. But it requires deliberate insertion to avoid overtravel. For range use that is fine but rough handling in the field might lead to problems. A neoprene O-ring, about 1-1/8" x 1/8" rolled down from the top of the mag to rest against the floorplate seems to serve pretty well as a mechanical stop, but I have not done enough testing to confirm it.
 
Discussion starter · #45 ·
...But it requires deliberate insertion to avoid overtravel. For range use that is fine but rough handling in the field might lead to problems. A neoprene O-ring, about 1-1/8" x 1/8" rolled down from the top of the mag to rest against the floorplate seems to serve pretty well as a mechanical stop, but I have not done enough testing to confirm it.
I can't wait for your testing reports, Mike. In the meanwhile I maintain it would be quite a feat to "beat" the P5's catch tab when inserting a magazine (thus allowing overtravel). Someone would have to be bullying their pistol in a frightful manner and really smashing that mag in there to beat the tab though you're right - anything's possible. And I agree with you wholeheartedly regarding the inevitable gap between the magazine floorplate and the butt of the pistol - it's the one nagging "flaw" to this modification to me. Honestly I don't even notice the difference at the range but it's just still there... My father has a kit filled with all kinds of assorted Metric O-rings upstairs at the shop - I'll swing by tomorrow and see what I can find for I too would like to have something mechanical at the bottom of the magazine. If we can figure out a way to make up for the inevitable magazine protrusion, I think we can say we've got something really cool here.

Eric, I just know that if you and I were to hook up someday we'd instantly become best friends. You have been receptive to "criticism" (more appropriately an observation) and I like how you've maintained your position. Don't get me wrong my friend, when I first got my P5 it was instant love but Oh! The magazine thing! I had watched your video even before I held it in my hand and knew the magazine catch was going to be considered. However, having really, really gone through it in the most nerdy ĂĽber-investigation you can imagine, it seems to be the general consensus that swapping the heel releases is not the best option. Unfortunately, with your method during practical shooting exercises or if an individual unfamiliar with the specifics of your magazine modification were to smartly smack the thing home, you're going to have a broken ejector.

-Pilotsteve
 
I can't wait for your testing reports, Mike. In the meanwhile I maintain it would be quite a feat to "beat" the P5's catch tab when inserting a magazine (thus allowing overtravel). Someone would have to be bullying their pistol in a frightful manner and really smashing that mag in there to beat the tab...

-Pilotsteve
Steve, I agree that it's hard to "beat" (i.e., override) the tab on the mag catch in ordinary handling. What concerns me is that the mag catch itself is not fixed rigidly in position vertically, but is held in a diagonal slot by the hammer spring. If there is no positive stop on the magazine, and if the shooter whacks the floorplate with the palm of his hand (you see people doing it all the time), there is potentially enough travel left even when the tab is latched to bounce the entire assembly upward against hammer spring pressure.

I have seen P38s, especially wartime guns that were loosely toleranced, in which an upward impact on the butt disengaged the mag catch from the frame. That meant the gun was hors de combat until the grips were removed and everything put back together.

I think we are in agreement that a positive stop built into the magazine is the difference between something that is good enough for range use vs. something you can rely on in the field. This is why the military conducts troop trials of small arms under adverse conditions. Soldiers have a way of finding any weakness very quickly.

M
 
Discussion starter · #47 ·
Now that I think about it, I'm happy with the magazine modification as it is. This surely isn't intended for a combat role - ultimately the idea is to make functional P5 magazines for $10. When we were on our way to the grocery store earlier my girl and I were talking about the magazine protrusion and how I wanted to stop by the shop to grab some O-rings. Then she stopped me with a dose of logic I'd forgotten.

"But if you do that, they won't work in the P38 anymore..." Bingo... I'd forgotten one of the real bonuses of this conversion: complete interchangeability between P38 and P5 pistols! If I were to "snug up" the bottom of the floorplate with an O-ring or spacer it's functionality in a P38 is lost.

Of course, I'm lucky enough to have both pistols and envision the wonderful ability to just use the same magazines between pistols, which is nice indeed. Not everyone is so lucky; those with only a P5 are left trying to find very elusive and expensive magazines. I doubt many of the current P5 enthusiasts are going to be using them for combat or police roles. If they did, then of course use the regular P5 magazine. But for the great majority who will enjoy their P5's for range use, this modification appears to effectively present affordable, functional magazines. Heck, it's a fun hobby for me as well & it keeps me from going completely crazy from cabin fever.

-Pilotsteve
 
Discussion starter · #50 ·
Perfect!

Mike, you are wise indeed and your thoughts and suggestions have bourne fruit. I stopped by 'Ye Ole Shoppe this morning and made my way through the shelves in the frozen upstairs storage. It was about -15°C (5°F) and the lights wouldn't ignite brighter than a dim flicker! But bravely I searched with flashlight clenched between teeth and knocking knees until I found just the right-sized O-ring.



When I got home this afternoon I rolled it onto the magazine tube and guess what? It's perfect.






Now there is no way the magazine can go in too far barring a hammer blow to the butt of the pistol or deliberate misuse. I purposely held in the catch tab and poooooshed that mag up in there... yes the O-ring is a bit squishy and gives some, ultimately allowing light contact with the magazine lip to the ejector. But I had to shove; unless you're purposely trying to damage your P5 by deliberate mishandling or mistreatment, the P38 to P5 magazine conversion is solved. The O-ring fills the gap and snugs things up very nicely.

As mentioned in my last post, I won't need the O-ring because I envision just dumping a pile of magazines onto the table at the range and picking between the P38 and my P5. But if anyone intends to use the modified P38 magazine solely in their P5, then by all means the O-ring finishes the job.

-Pilotsteve
 
Discussion starter · #51 ·
One more thought: Eric, stop by the hardware store on the way home next time you're out and get yourself some O-rings. Just roll them onto the P38 magazines you use in your modded P5 catch system and I'll be happy with your conversion! Just as a safety, 'ya know man?

-Pilotsteve
 
Discussion starter · #53 ·
Not sure, Blitz. It was in a bin with about 500 others of miscellaneous size. I had a "Guinea pig" magazine with me and just kept trying them until I found "Goldilocks." Whatever size it is, it fits around the magazine tube tightly enough to square off at the corners but not so that it gets stretched too much. Just throw a magazine into your pocket and go to the hardware store and fuss through the bins of O-rings until you find Goldilocks as well. It should be about 3mm thick 'cause that's about what we're left with sticking out.

-Pilotsteve
 
Steve: I am absolutely compelled to take this opportunity to congratulate you for a magnificent experimental endeavor that has proved successful. It is rare that anyone undertakes to do a job without cutting corners, in the professional way that it should be done.

I am in awe. The tooling alone is phenomenal.

Thank you for doing this.

M
 
Discussion starter · #55 ·
I am absolutely compelled to take this opportunity to congratulate you for a magnificent experimental endeavor that has proved successful.
Thank you, Mike... your congratulations is reward enough for having taken on the project. Have you tried them yet? Don't congratulate me until they cycle rounds through your P5 and lock the slide back when empty!

-Pilotsteve
 
Steve, got a question for ya. I'm pretty close to striking a deal for a P5C to compliment my newly acquired P5. Just like everybody else, I'm wondering where in the cornbread heck, I'm gonna find additional P5/P5C magazines. In my research (surfin' the web) I ran across this Walther P5 compact thumb release which says that some magazines were produced with the cutouts for the P5 as well as the P5C.....AWESOME.

Now my question is this, if I sent you a P5C magazine would you feel up to the task of determining if you can duplicate the magazine catch (hole)? I'm thinking some magazines with two holes (one for P5 (slot, bottom rear) and P5C (funny shaped hole, towards the top front corner) WOULD BE AWESOME.

What do ya think?

Edit: Little more searching and reading and I see you were already lucky enough to snag some Interarms P5/P5C magazines.....what a lucky guy..... So, you don't need me to send you a P5C mag. Questions is still there though.....do you think its possible to modify a stock P5 mag to work in the P5C and/or modify a P1/38 mag to work in both?
 
Discussion starter · #57 · (Edited)
...do you think its possible to modify a stock P5 mag to work in the P5C and/or modify a P1/38 mag to work in both?
Heck yes it's possible! And not all too difficult either but it'll take some creativity on my part to make the modification as perfect as possible. Mike has provided me with some guidance in the past (with #5 from this earlier post) and I could look into it more later this afternoon/evening with a fresh update dedicated to P5 Compact magazines.

The trick with both of the notches (both P5 and P5 Compact magazines) is they were punched out in the manufacturing process and I don't have that capability without incurring enormous tooling costs. Specialized dies and punches can cost many thousands of dollars and would require a huge setup process in order to be able to perform the operation on the 60 ton inertia press at my uncle's shop. No - that's out of the question but I can machine them.

Hmmm. I'm still in the office right now and probably should be dedicating my time to work instead of fun things like this discussion. When I get home later this afternoon I'll grab one of my P5 Compact magazines, camera, and nerdiness. We'll figure this one out...

-Pilotsteve
 
Discussion starter · #59 · (Edited)
P5 Compact modification thoughts (Warning - nerd content)

OK, so now the question arises whether or not it is possible to modify stock P5 (or better still P.38) magazines to function in the P5 Compact. The great majority of Compacts have a PP series-like thumb release (sweet!) instead of the standard P5's heel catch. This requires a punched hole in a precise location on the front right curved area in the front of the magazine. Aside from this punch, the magazine is identical to a regular P5's; it even has the notch so it'll work in a P5. Observe:





Now then, what are the critical tolerances involved here? As we know, I don't have the honor of possessing one of these semi-precious pistols in my safe so I cannot reference the magazine catch system but it sure looks like the catch on my PPK magazines to me. Hmmm.

So what can I do? I can machine horizontal and vertical passes to exacting standards in the X, Y, and Z coordinates but curves are another story. Observe the closeup of the P5 compact magazine catch:



This will prove challenging for me to accomplish as the punched notch features straight cuts in the X and Y axis but also a radius between the two points. For those familiar with the Cartesian coordinate system, imagine the 90° as the origin (0,0). We travel +X for a distance and -Y (say X = 1 & Y = -1). We then must meet the two points with a radius, and that is something difficult to accomplish with human hands. You see, I can mill X and Y precisely but in order to cut a curve, it requires extremely complex manipulation of the machine control wheels. It's exactly the same thing as trying to draw a circle on an Etch-A-Sketch.

Question is, what are the critical surfaces involved here? Mike has professed the main critical juncture is the uppermost flat and I concur. There's no doubt this works exactly like my PPK and it's easy to figure out. As the magazine is inserted, the magazine catch secures it in place by holding it with the flat (it's the vertical line of the notch in the above image). When the mag catch button is depressed, it moves into the frame and loses contact with this mating surface and the spring pressure of the follower (or cartridge) upon the slide will pop the magazine out of the pistol frame. Gravity does the rest.

I am not certain of the necessary cuts that must be made in order for a modification to work. As discussed earlier, I can machine straight lines both vertically and horizontally (+/- X, +/- Y) but radii are very difficult to mill. I wonder, is the radius really necessary? As my feeble mind ponders this quandary, I suspect not. When all is said and done, I have a feeling I can produce both Walther P5 and P5 Compact-compatible magazines from readily available P.38 stock but they may appear quite different from factory issue.

Some initial observations:



-Pilotsteve
 
Nice work Steve. I agree with your thinking (wondering) if that nice contoured (curved) shape on the two sides of the P9C mag release slot are actually functional or just pretty. Really do need a P5C to oogle.

I had emailed and subsequently called a follow just the other day about a P5 Compact he was selling....we made a deal over the phone, and the final price would depend on how much it would cost him to ship the pistol to me. He was supposed to check on shipping and get back to me with a price. Late Monday night, I had not heard from him so I sent an email asking if he'd had time to check on shipping and the answer was....well, long story short, he backed out of the deal.:confused: ME NOT HAPPY!!!!! Oh well, the search continues.

However, just heard from the fellow with the P5 that I purchased on GunBroker....it should be in the mail today.....:D Christmas in September!!!!!!
 
41 - 60 of 87 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top