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Discussion Starter #21 (Edited)
The facts again (people learn by repeating):

1) Walther CCP can chamber a round when manually loading the round from magazine without cocking the striker.

2) User has no confirmation from any indicator on the gun if the striker is set properly after loading the weapon and is not sure if the gun is ready to fire.

3) The gun can fail to cock the striker itself when it cycles when being fired.

4) When this happens striker protrudes from the breech face and hits the primer during chambering the round and after.

5) The primer is then loaded by constant force from the striker (600g or 1.3 pounds) and added inertia force in the case user would drop the gun.

ALL THESE FACTS ARE UNIQUE TO WALTHER CCP. NO OTHER MODERN HANDGUN SOLD TODAY HAS THESE PROPERTIES.

Walther CCP is not unique and special. It uses the same system guns 100 years old used. The development went ahead and we arrived to different systems. Why are these systems different from what CCP uses? They are different because they DEAL WITH SHORTCOMINGS OF THIS OLD SYSTEM. CCP brought these things back. They are different because they brought more safety to handguns. More safety is good, right? Not in minds of some insane Walther engineers.

Using old outdated system when the industry standard today calls for a different more safe design puts Walther IN A VERY DIFFICULT position if something happened because of it.


No, you do not put deliberatelly a slightly loose steering wheel to a vehicle and then trial test if you can get away with it. Please stop the nonsensical posts about trial testing a flawed product.
 

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WW: Folks are entitled to their opinions, regardless of whether someone else or anyone else agrees with them. You have laid out a set of facts as you see them. Not everyone agrees, apparently, Walther engineers and lawyers included. Let's allow the discussion to continue without shouting, with all voices heard, shall we?
 

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...Not everyone agrees, apparently, Walther engineers and lawyers included...
Walther probably wants to design and test a solution to the problem(s) before issuing a recall.

There are lessons to be learned from observing the past recall of the Springfield XDS. People dutifully sent in their XDS to Springfield but then they later learned the company had not yet finalized a solution to the problem. There were many irate XDS owners over that initial lapse in disclosure.

If the CCP is not recalled, then people will be left wondering what potential issues/reports Walther is turning a blind eye towards with their other models like the PPQ, PPX and PPS.
 

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2) User has no confirmation from any indicator on the gun if the striker is set properly after loading the weapon and is not sure if the gun is ready to fire.
I do prefer some sort of indicator that shows the condition of a gun (hammers are my favorite :)) but this can still be verified on the CCP by slightly retracting the slide and visually inspecting the FP condition. I do this with all of my guns before I put them in the holster regardless so I know for sure there's a chambered round.
 

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Look I am with 1911 on this. There is No indication nor report that the failure that you are describing has actually happened. I have carried the same round in the chamber for weeks, and after repeated loading an unloading, I see no dimple on the primer. I have put 800 or more rounds through mine and have never had a failure of either the short cycle or the firing from a closing breach that you describe.

Walt, As for your contentions, 1) the firearm can load a round without catching the sear, but you physically have to try to do it. This does not happen from having the slide in the locked back position and releasing the slide lever, nor does it happen when you pull back completely on the slide and release. in order to make this malfunction happen, a person has to physically ease the slide back just enough to pick up the round and then ease the slide forward bring the round into battery. 2) many firearms do not have striker position indicators, MOST DO NOT. Both Glock, and the much beloved Walther PPQ fall into this category. 3) Okay I will give you this. this can actually happen. 4) Yep this too, but you are ignoring the fact that the round is changing and moving while the breach face closes. the round slides up and over the breach face. 5) I think that there might be some experimental error here. You (or whomever made the video) used a pencil with a sharp point to measure the force. I am not up on my physics, but I am fairly certain that a point on the scale end is going to increase the measured force on the breach face. I think that a plain dowel would give better (and more accurate results) I will leave that argument to smarter heads, but this is the entire argument that your whole conclusion rides on, and if there is experimental error here, then the whole conclusion has to be re-evaluated.

I am not saying that there are not better designs out there. I find that the the long slide to be an annoyance. Personally I like the delayed Gas blowback design, and if they could have integrated the gas system with a PPQ trigger, boy would THAT be sweet.

But, and here is the real BUT... Walther is not going to redesign a firearm from the ground up just because some people don't like it. It is going to take a real reason that has financial incentive to scrap a design that they have already gone to market with and appears to be working (we are not having trigger failures here). Which means that some owners are going to have to get organized and get representation to force change here (that means an attorney). I am not advocating this, and if asked, if my current streak of good luck holds, I would refuse to be a part of any such action.

But look at this if you were the owner of a firearm company, and you have spent years developing a new firearm and only SOME people were not satisfied with your design. You would be resistant to change for the appeasement of SOME people there unless you had some REAL obligation. And that would mean that the change would have to take on a monetary meaning. just food for thought.
 

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I think there are two sides to this tale and both have good points. Yes, the pistol can short stroke and chamber a round with the striker not being caught, but no evidence of unintentional discharges as of this date. Yes the slide can short stroke with the striker not being caught and the owner has really no indication that his pistol is not ready to fire. The same thing can happen with any exposed hammer fired pistol but you can certainly observe that the hammer didn't cock and if the pistol has a DA mode then you could still fire it. The CCP can short stroke and leave you with a dead trigger and no real way of checking it other than pulling on the trigger a bit. I doubt Walther would recall the pistol for the trigger issue. They will emphasize that the manual clearly states that the slide must be fully cycled. I don't like it, most probably won't like it, my P99 cocks immediately but that is the way this pistol has been designed. Perhaps something simple can be added to show the striker status, perhaps not.

An owner will simply have to familiarize themselves with how the pistol operates. Placing the safety on safe will also render a dead trigger. Learn how your pistol works....but I still don't like it. I'm sure Walther has tested all of this, performed drop tests, etc. They must feel confident the pistol will not fire if dropped with the striker forward or with the slide slamming shut on a chambered round....striker forward. Now, should we find that it is relatively easy to set a round off, that will be another matter.

Still this is an interesting thread and shows me that Members here are really digging into the details of this pistol. Something only possible on this scale due to the net and public information sharing. Good catch by WobblyWalt.... we will see where all this goes. M1911
 

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Wobbly is correct in all his observations with the possible exception of the actual force required to move the firing compress the firing pin rearward....that takes a tool I do not possess. What none of us can demonstrate is whether the striker will discharge a chambered round from a slam or drop condition. My personal experience combined with several others involving failed striker cocking with a chambered round seems to indicate that the probability of a slam discharge is low. That can only be proven through extensive testing. The probability of a drop discharge must also be thoroughly tested. Therefore, the risk must be assumed to exist based on results of JohnC's testing and live fire results of those who verified with photographic evidence of primer "crushing".

Perfection does not exist but that does not mean the manufacturer of a product should not continuously strive to improve the safety and quality of their products.....especially one that is intended to be used in a life threatening/personal protection environment.

Walther must be responsive to this and other issues. Silence is simply unacceptable and their persistent silence begins to reveal much about the organization and those in charge.
 

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XDs recall wouldn't be necessary; the gun failed only when manipulated without depressing the safety(almost impossible in normal handling) yet Springfield did it anyway. It's same with CCP, only in certain situation operation may failed. And if the safety depends on crappy springs don't count on it much. My gun failed again; striker spring broke after 200 rounds and trigger is not resetting because trigger return spring broke after about 225 rounds( 25 rounds after first 200)and will go back to Walther
 

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CZ-USA CZ P-01 gets NATO approval. The next Generation of perfect pistols - CZ-USA

Some CZ tests including drop test. Can anyone find the outline of testing for Walther products? This is a blowback pistol so fewer moving parts of concern when the pistol is dropped. I feel certain Walther performs these tests and have determined that the striker does not have enough weight/energy to ignite a primer. I often wondered how safe my old Win '94 was with rounds loaded nose to primer, under recoil. Apparently pretty safe. M1911
 

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It's not only force to move FP flushed with breach face, its the inertia of striker which will be greater than just to depress the spring. I inserted primed case and dropped the slide before striker was cocked and it left the mark on primer.
In an uncocked condition the striker is already full forward into the breech and remains in that position unless caught by means of friction of jamming. Again, without test data we can not assume that the striker has an accelerating effect on the slide as it moves forward.
 

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Perfection does not exist but that does not mean the manufacturer of a product should not continuously strive to improve the safety and quality of their products.....especially one that is intended to be used in a life threatening/personal protection environment. ...
Yes!!! Guns are a special kind of a product! It seems that Umarex treats CCP as if it was a product from quite a different category, quality of manufacture if on par with airpistols for children or gas pistols (the pistols that can fire just blanks with some pepper etc).
 

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In an uncocked condition the striker is already full forward into the breech and remains in that position unless caught by means of friction of jamming. Again, without test data we can not assume that the striker has an accelerating effect on the slide as it moves forward.
Here is the primed case with the striker mark after dropping slide before cocking striker.
 

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Discussion Starter #34 (Edited)
Looking at that pictures of dents in the primer something comes up on my mind:

What is the meaning of one of the most important firearms safety rules:

KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTILL YOU ARE READY TO FIRE

when we allow the striker to touch and dent the primer? We cannot touch the trigger yet the striker can touch the primer?!
It seems that this safety rule is completelly pointless in that case. Forget gun conventional safety rules with Walther CCP.

Walther developed a new safety rule:

You can touch the trigger whenever you want. You can even pull it a bit.
Just a little bit. Not much. The gun then will not fire most of the times. If you want it to fire, pull the trigger hard. The gun then MAY fire provided the striker is cocked. When the striker is not cocked and you have no time or chance to reload a new round the special Walther way which ensures this time the striker will be properly cocked, you can just throw the gun on the attacker. When throwing the gun on the attacker be sure so that is does not land with the muzzle pointing at you. The gun may kill you then.
 

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Again, without test data we can not assume that the striker has an accelerating effect on the slide as it moves forward.
Good morning Mr. Chandler5566. I think we could only assume that two compressed springs should push the slide forward at a faster rate vs one. What that speed might be is unknown. Aren't there instruments that measure velocity other then the ones that are used by police officers on me and on a regular basis? :(:) OK, I almost have enough guns...I need another fast sports car....what to get, what to get? M1911
 

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WobblyWalt, I'm not really following the analogy above. If the safety is off, a round is in the chamber, the hammer/striker cocked and you pull the trigger......you will likely fire the round. Keeping your finger off the trigger all but eliminates accidentally firing a firearm.

Having the firing pin nose rest against a loaded round isn't the best idea in my opinion but, can you make your pistol fire in this condition even by abusing the pistol? I'm not sure you can, I'm not sure the mass and spring pressure of the striker is sufficient. I still think Walther thoroughly tested this. Again I haven't grown comfortable with this layout but a number of tube fed center fire rifles with much heavier strikers ( nose against primer of loaded rounds) seem to work fine even under recoil. Winchester and Marlin rifles carry rounds in a tube with pretty strong spring pressure on the stack and that can be subject to up to six pretty strong recoil impacts from firing. Some rounds are blunt and rounded, some more pointed yet there are no issues.

More serious concerns to me at this point are the numerous stoppages, parts falling out of the pistol, several failures of parts to function properly, parts breaking, an obvious lack of quality control and final inspection and Walther not stopping production to address the above.

I think your point is well taken regarding the rearward position of the sear and firing pin and the fact that the pistol can be assumed to be cocked when in fact it is not and there is no way to really tell. I also agree that this pistol is in a large part directed toward those with diminished hand strength which would likely make this issue even more serious for those owners. M1911
 

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I did add a statement to this in the OP of the running issue thread as I believe WobblyWalt has presented what is definitely an issue regarding not being able to tell if the pistol is cocked and ready to fire and the undesirable situation where the nose of the firing pin can rest against the primer of a live, chambered round. If I find one of these pistol used and for a cheap price I'm going to get one and measure everything and abuse it until we get to the bottom of several things. I don't mind drop tests on a pistol I don't trust to begin with and certainly wouldn't carry for self defense at this point. M1911
 

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Good morning Mr. Chandler5566. I think we could only assume that two compressed springs should push the slide forward at a faster rate vs one. M1911
Yes, we can assume that. In fact I just tested the slide action without the recoil spring and without cocking the striker. The slide not only closes quickly to full battery but it is also possible to chamber a round.....all with only the striker spring in place. Why doesn't the round discharge as experienced by myself and others....I do not know. The force required is obviously sufficient for a slam so I still believe the firing pin is compressed at least enough to prevent a slam discharge.
 

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I don't expect it will fire a round stripping it from the mag. The striker is resting on the primer as the slide closes. Bet it won't even leave a mark. I couldn't fire the primer releasing the slide on a chambered round. If that won't do it, riding on the primer won't either.
 

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I don't expect it will fire a round stripping it from the mag.
I will agree with your assumption. However, I also agree with 1911 and Wobbly with respect to a flawed design element....the striker should always be trapped by the safety when a round can be chambered by any combination of mechanical movements or a round is never permitted to chamber when the striker is uncocked.
 
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