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Discussion Starter #1
I got an answer to the question why the Danish Police changed the Slides on the PP 7.65. to the non signal indicator pin. So it was faulty manufacturing or too hot rounds.

Their reply:

Dear jaems

It is a longer histori in short. Our walther PP had a error, that caused the thin wall in the slide could break of, and fall into the trigger system, so the trigger system was blocking, therefore we got about 2000 pcs. of a new slide for walther PP produced without signal pin.
In the meanwhile we tested new 9mm pistol.

I hoop it can help. It is very difficult to explain it in writing.

Med venlig hilsen
Jimmy P. Hansen
Teknisk Leder
RIGSPOLITIET

Koncernservice
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Odinsvej 19
2600 - Glostrup
Telefon: 0045-33148888
Telefon dir: 0045-45155470
Mobil: 0045-21716632
Mail: [email protected]
 

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First,I wish to thank you for the research and work that you did to answer this question.Second,if you correspond with the Danish police again,express our thanks.If I understand correctly the slide rails were too thin and the"hotter" ammo caused a pieceto break and fall into the trigger firing mechanism.The new slides were thicker[?]and no loaded chamber indicator.I am guessing this fixed the problem and they continued to issue the PP until a new weapon was chosen.Again,thank you for the time spent to follow up on this question.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
No, I thank them and told how much we appreciated their time to answer our query.

I have always found the Danes to be very helpful when asked. They also still appreciate Americans and one of the few countries that will celebrate our 4th of July with us. Of course, it doesn't hurt that I am half Danish and have a Danish name.
 

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I don't wish to be contentious, but in reading the response literally, without reading anything into it, the only conclusion that can be positively drawn is that Danes discovered that some PP slides broke due to a manufacturing error, i.e., were not made correctly.

What the error was, or exactly what broke off, or how many pistols were affected, we don't know. Nor is it clear that the signal pin had anything at all to do with it, or that "hot ammo" was in any way involved. The fact that 200 replacement slides were ordered without signal pins does not, without more explanation, indicate anything except perhaps a desire to save money. It certainly does not justify a conclusion that any other change was made to the slides other than to manufacture them correctly according to the drawings.

This is a good example of how internet legends are born.

M
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Mike,

You did notice that I did not say one way or the other. I had left it open. They did order 2000 new slides.

However, Herr Jimmy Hansen has sent me another email and was a little more clear and specific in what the problem was and why. He has also sent some scans of the effected area of the slide. He said he has worked with the Walther PP, PPK, and THP for 20 years Since he is a Teknisk Leder (Technical Manager with the Danish Police) I have invited him to join our forum.

Like I have said: I find the Danes to be more accommodating than some others. My ancestors were a very friendly folk. Just don't piss them off.

Herr Hansen's English has improved in this email:

Dear Jaems

I have worked with Walther pistol PP – PPK and THP for 20 years.

When we have the first mistake we send the pistol for investigation for this crack.
It turned out when Walther factory inductions hardened the slide on the left side where the safety arm stop ( See drawing ). It happened because the factory could not control the depth of the hardening.

I can see you have a Scandinavian last name.

I have been two times in Oregon on a factory Uncle Mikes.

And one time for Fly Fishing, it is a very beautiful area.

I will probably come back again.

Regard
Jimmy
 

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Okay, I dropped a digit; the Danes ordered 2,000 not 200 new slides.

And now we know that the flaw was faulty heat-treatment and that some slides (no idea how many) either cracked or broke at the thin wall of the feed rail where it partially covers the safety drum, and which apparently was made brittle by the faulty heat treatment. In at least one case, the piece broke off and jammed the mechanism.

But so far I have seen nothing to justify any conclusion that this was widespread, or related to the signal pin or "hot ammo". I'm not ruling this out, I'm only saying that so far there's no evidence of it. I am a firm believer in evidence; I have very little use for speculation or the rampant extension of conclusions. These assumptions -- I remind you all-- are what started this thread topic.

We also don't know how many Danish PP pistols actually broke, or had slides replaced --either to repair damage or as insurance to forestall any possible failure later.

If y'all disagree, I'll back off and leave you to spin your spiderwebs.

M
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Mike,

Hansen may decide to join us on the forum. Like I said, I invited him. He can then be even more precise. At least we now know that the slides were weak do to faulty manufacturing, and European rounds were hotter than the US ones, at least back then. J knew this for a fact. So it may be a combination of several factors,as to why they failed. 2000 PP's are a lot of PP's in a country as small as Danmark. That might be 90% of their police force.

So Mike, the only true fact we do know is that the slide failed do to faulty manufacturing. I wonder how many other slides out there that may be faulty do to this problem. My date was 1975. So it could be in the middle of a run the beginning or the end of one. If it had happen today. We would have a recall and know what s/n run was effected. There may have been only one or two. But again, enough were failing to be noted in one authors book.

If Hansen emails me again. I will try to ask him actually how many failed and what other than the heat treatment, may have caused the failure.

Come on Mike, don't you just love a mystery. I first purchase a Danish Police PP that did have a signal pin. Milspec had information from a book that the Danes were using hotter ammo than everyone else. Then I went to the source and asked them what was the problem. They came back and said that the slides were weak do to a poor heating treatment that cause the slide to crack, break off, and fall into the trigger mechanism. We also found out that 2000 slides were ordered. We are now assuming that all the slides were replaced. If they had failed or not. We also know that the European ammo is or was hotter than the US at that time.

Speculation: Could the authors reporting of the hotter ammo be just the standard ammo used by the European compared to the US. This being misinterpreted as the Danes using hotter any anyone else. Or they just fired more rounds through their weapons than the average person or other police forces. They were in service longer than the average police forces.

Come on Mike don't you want to untangle this spiderweb. Maybe we can get enough silk to knit you a sweater.
 

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Jaems amd MGMike

I am enjoying this post.To me,it gets more interesting as it goes on.The correct answer will appear and we will all have learned this little bit of history.I know that this is one of the many reasons I follow this post.Patience and research will prevail and we will all be happy.I am looking forward to the Danish Police joining this forum.I think that all reading will learn from the correct answer.Thank you both.
 

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If you check an L66A1 .22 PP with the "P" stamped slide you'll see discoloration where the slide area was heat treated. I doubt this was needed due to overly hot .22 ammo or the slide hitting the trigger guard too hard. My guess is the slides are affected by tossing the safety drum back and forth as the round count increases. Just a theory.
.
Here are photos of my 1940 & 1983 Danish Police PP's. No cracks are visible on either slide though both showed normal wear.
.
 

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Milspec: The 'P' marking indicates, that they've installed a reinforced firing pin. Certainly to hit the reinforced cartridge on the overly hot.22 ammo... ;)

The hottest European ammo (7,65mm) available on the civil market was made by GECO/RWS (now part of Ruag). Standard ammo for most of the European PP series user over decades, because they were cheap and available everywhere.




GECO old (RWS, shown left side): E0(Joule) = 248
S&B: E0(J) = 240
GECO new (RUAG, shown in the middle): E0(J) = 214
Fiocchi (shown right side): E0(J) = 206
Standard (f.e. Winchester Super-X FMJ, Prvi Partizan, Magtech): E0(J) = 175

To compare => 9mm kurz/.380: E0(J) = up to 310
 

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Here's an update with photos of my 1973 Danish Police PP with one of the Walther, Ulm, replacement slides made without an indicator pin. The slide was seperately proofed with an Eagle/N proof mark, "II" (1988) date code, and Ulm proof house antler on the right slide. The full frame serial number is engraved inside the slide.
 

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Your's is much like mine. Though mine is a '71 model, it shares the same characteristics as yours.

I like the way the Danes etched the serial numbers into the mag finger extension.

I've often thought about replacing the hammer strut plug to get rid of the lanyard loop to make it a bit easier for CC, but I hate screwing with original pieces.
 
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