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Discussion Starter #1
Im sure the topic has been beaten to death. I searched and found some info but here is a tough one.

I know most every one recommend the P99 over the SW for its all German manu/parts. However, I was looking at both these guns today and the P99 while it said it was made in Germany had a "Made by SW" on the slide?

Im confused!
 

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I'll need to see a picture of that to believe it.
I think what you saw was the IMPORT markings on the right side of the slide that said "Smith & Wesson" which is just to satisfy the requirements by the BATF to indentify the importer of the gun, which is Smith & Wesson.

All Walther P99s, G22s and P22s are made in Germany and imported by Smith & Wesson.

James
 

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Discussion Starter #3
[b said:
Quote[/b] (extremist @ Nov. 06 2004,6:23)]I'll need to see a picture of that to believe it.  
 I think what you saw was the IMPORT markings on the right side of the slide that said "Smith & Wesson" which is just to satisfy the requirements by the BATF to indentify the importer of the gun, which is Smith & Wesson.  

All Walther P99s, G22s and P22s are made in Germany and imported by Smith & Wesson.

James
That could very well be, as a rookie I could have mistaken those for sure.
 

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Check for proof marks. (HK and Walther use the same proof house, so the marks are the same.) Although my P99 is marked "Smith & Wesson Springfield, MA," the barrel has the Walther logo, and the barrel and the slide have German proof marks. A U.S. made P99, if it exists, will not have proof marks.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Cawdor @ Nov. 06 2004,6:44)]Check for proof marks. (HK and Walther use the same proof house, so the marks are the same.) Although my P99 is marked "Smith & Wesson Springfield, MA," the barrel has the Walther logo, and the barrel and the slide have German proof marks. A U.S. made P99, if it exists, will not have proof marks.
I will do that. As soon as I get the gun.
Just ordered a XD9 (stainless) for the wife and the P99 for me. Just liked the look better than the SW version. Then I saw the slide marked and was confused. Ill post up as soon as I get her!

Thanks for the help!
 

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I own a P99 in 40 and 1 in 9mm. The 9 has the German proof marks but the 40 does not. It is my understanding that there was a batch of P99's made I believe only in 40 that S&W made the slides and Walther the rest. I paid only $499.00 for the 40 but $575 for the 9. I am very pleased with both.
 

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Jmac
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Im sure the topic has been beaten to death.
Yes but unfortunatly, it's been beaten to death by people who either don't know what their talking about or are just outright lying to you, out of some twisted notion that "If its made in Germany it must be better"

Out of all these threads, I have yet to see anybody who has laid the Smith 99 slide next to the Walther 99 slide, miked 'em out and given me any evidence that the Machine Work being done on Smith & Wessons CNC Machines is in any way inferior to the work being turned out by Walther on their same CNC Machines. Nobody has ever been able to come up with any figures to show that Walthers Spec is any different than Smiths in regards to tolerance.

Tennifer and Melonite are both Nitride hardening processes and if you go to the American Finishing Institute's web site (A engineering site. with questions about "What finish should I use on this valve I'm designing for this Nuclear Reactor.) they'll tell you that the differnces in the process are so small as to be almost non-existant. Tennifer being patented by the Germans and Melonite being the American version offered by Burlington. Both create a super hard layer bonded to the surface of the steel. Smiths version of the process has about one more step of complexity, due to the fact that they are bonding it to stainless steel.

Melonite over stainess steel is about the most corrosion resistant handgun slide ever devised by the mind of man Hans...you might want to give a little thought to why Smith uses the more expensive stainess steel in their slides, before you puff out your Gemanophile chests to much, about the quality of walther's slides.

The frames are made by Walther to Smith & Wessons Spec. Smith opting for a usable rail right of the bat. Walther only coming to the conclusion that their attachment point needed changing this year in the 2004 redesign, which also made for a wider slide.

Smith also decided to do away with the hooked trigger guard, a feature which most American shooters never really bought into anyway and is rapidly dissapearing in the evolution of European handguns.

The Gemaniphiles claimed loudly on this board, that Smith would never come out with anouther trigger option, yet just in the last month or so S&W anounced the SW99OL, which Smith says is a decockerless QA.

Walther Magazine floor plates have been splitting, dumping Walther Shootes rounds on the ground. S&W magazines floor plates have not had this problem.

Most of the diss'ing of Smith & Wesson 99's is being done by guys that can only quote the lamest second or third party hear say, or that think, the Germans are some sort of Engineering supermen, that we poor Americans could not hope to compete with. to hear these morons talk, you'd think that, we had never worked steal or built a firearm in this country.

The Smith & Wesson 99 is an great firearm, easily the equal in quality of Machine work and workmanship to Walther, H&K, and Sig. Anybody that tells you different is blowing Euro smoke at you.
 

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My, my aren't we cranky.

I don't like the SW99's because I've seen too many of them in bad shape. When they first came out the Melonite finish was flaking off of brand new, in the box examples that I saw. Their triggers were gritty also. (If you want to call me a liar, so be it, I know what I saw and felt).

Accuracy has proven to be better out of the Walther's. Is this a big deal from a combat handgun. Probably not. Why are they more accurate? I would suspect overall dimensions are different. The slides and barrels are different on each model and I suspect that S&W made their tolerance a little looser, thus the barrel to slide lock-up aren't as tight on the Smith as they are the Walther. This could be either good or bad, depending on how you look at it.

Both guns have had their problems. Neither one is perfect. It all boils down to which one you like the best.
 

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I agreed with almost everything in the above posting, until I read the ninth paragraph. The fact remains that Walther designed and brought to market the P99 series of pistols, not Smith and Wesson. S&W has never engineered a world class automatic service pistol and the slight design changes that constitute the SW99 are not a complete product improvement, the magazine floor plate issue aside.

Unfortunately, the SW99 has never really gotten a fair assessment in the market. It is a far better gun than many other pistols, but it is hampered by the S&W name, due to the Ed Shultz fiasco with the Clinton adminsitration. In my opinion, it isn't better than the P99, it merely has several changes that don't improve the original product.
 

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Let's not forget that the magazine floorplate issue has just shown up recently and is not the norm. I have many .40 cal. P99 magazines and not one has shown up with a problem. The response from Walther customer service has been right on and they have replaced all the magazines that have had the bad floorplates. From what I've learned it was actually Mec-Gar that started the problem. They supply Walther and I'm assuming S&W magazines. Whoever makes the floor plates either used a different plastic or didn't mix the ingredients together correctly.
 

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P88
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]When they first came out the Melonite finish was flaking off of brand new, in the box examples that I saw
Thats intresting, Just exacty how does a Nitride bonded finish "flake off" like paint...its bonded into the molecular structure of the metal. In order to "Flake off" it would have to take large chunks of the stainless with it. You need to read up on nitride hardening methods Hans, because this is exacty the sort of Germanophile lying I was talking about. No one would have the guts to even suggest that Tennifer "flaked off" like paint, yet Melonite and Tennifer are both nitride hardening methods...once again an example of "Americans must be to stupid to nitride." without the slightest hint of proof other than the word of someone with an obvious bias.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Their triggers were gritty also.
Again this statement would ask us to believe that 88 would know a gritty trigger if it bit him...no evidence, no proof, just a Germanophile telling us once again, that the American product must be inferior. Call me back, when you've hooked up both triggers to some sort of measuring device Hans, cause I'm not real sure I trust your magic finger.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Accuracy has proven to be better out of the Walther's
Says who? You show me a side by side test of 4 or 5 of both pistols in a ransom rest, shot for accuracy statistics...oh whoops...I'll bet you can't do that can you P88? Instead you would most likely offer two different gun rag articles where two different shooters of different skills, shot the pistols offhand and then touted their article as a scientific test of accuracy...Again Hans, when you can show me some Statistics on this accuracy myth...give us all a call, huh booby.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] I suspect that S&W made their tolerance a little looser
You "suspect"....I am in awe of your access to the inner engineering workings, of both Smith & Wesson and Walther Hans. Perhaps you could publish some evidence of Smith & Wessons looser tolerance's...Whoops, You say you can't, this is just one Germanophiles biased opinion...Darn

Theres nothing wrong with pride of ownership, as long as you don't let it cloud your judgement, to the point, you believe that nobody but the Keebler elves, living in the hollow tree in Germany, could possibly produce a quality product.
 

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BlueIron
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The fact remains that Walther designed and brought to market the P99 series of pistols, not Smith and Wesson.
Just to be sure, I just Jacked the round out of the chamber of my S&W 99, deftly caught it and looked at the rim...Is it Georgi Luger's little pill?....Nope. It says .40 S&W on the back...Naw...Smith & Wesson never ever designed anything...I'll bet those Germans even make pistols chambered for that evil Smith & Wesson bullet.


Why, someday the Germans might build a 99 in that poorly thought of peice of American ammunition technology the .45...Oh wait the American Company Smith & Wesson, already does that. Don't they.
 

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You can attack the poster, but your logic fails you. Winchester designed the .40 Smith and Wesson at the behest of S&W for inclusion in 9mm dimensioned frames. Smith and Wesson contributed the firearm manufacturing only. The original idea though goes back to the .40 Guns & Ammo cartridge designed for the Browning P-35, back in the early 70's.

There is no reason for Walther to build a .45 A.C.P. caliber P99. It is covered in the American market place by Smith and Wesson and Carl Walther markets their weapons primarily to European and other markets.
 

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Nothing to add here.......... other than S&W99OL........ you need to try de-caf.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
Theres nothing wrong with pride of ownership, as long as you don't let it cloud your judgement,
Good advice........
 

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NM_99
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]This fancy new trigger you are bragging about S&W inventing........ it came out a few years ago, Walther called it the P990.
Poor NM_99. You just have not been keeping up with current events, Have you? Well, here's a little gift from me, that pretty much proves, that you don't know what your talking about and that anybody who would take your word on the differnce between Smith & Wesson and Walther should think twice about you supposed level of expertise.

This is the letter I wrote to S&W a couple of weeks ago, regarding the new SW99OL

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Subject: SW99OL Info?
To: [email protected]

Hey Smith...Whats the deal? You've published pictures
of the SW99OL to get all of us loyal SW99'ers all
worked up and now theres no info on the new slide and
trigger on your website. Is the new trigger just the
old Walther 990 DAO trigger or has Smith & Wesson
improved on Walthers long heavy DAO?

Will the SW99AS triggered models still be availible or
will the OL's replace the anti-stress trigger totaly?
I ask because I'm seriously thinking about buying a
SW99 compact in 9mm to go along with my current full
sized SW99/.40 and am concerned that the heavy first
shot trigger pull of the AS trigger with the shorter
grip surface of the SW99 compact might make a shorter
than 990 pull a better choice for me, on the compact
model.

I've owned a SW99/.40 since early 2001 and think that
it's the best polymer framed defensive handgun on the
market and the Smith & Wesson redesigned frame and
Melonite over stainless slide is even better than the
finishes on S&W's Stategic Partnership Walther
cousins.

The Melonite finish on my SW99 has lasted a whole lot
better than the Tennifer on my Glock 21.

I also want to thank you guys at S&W for making hicap
factory mags availble to the public after the sunset
of the ban. Many makers did not and I think this goes
a long way twards healing the tarnished image of Smith
& Wesson left over from the previous ownership.

Thanks
This is the reply that Mark Rossini at S&W was nice enough to send me back the next business day.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The OL is a quick action trigger -it is a shorter and lighter pull than the DAO
So what that means NM_99, is that, I so own you. Because you just proved to god and everybody here, whom you wish, to look at your little tidbits of wisdom,regarding German superiority as the sermon on the mount, that you don't have the first clue what your talking about. The Smith & Wesson 99OL is not a 990 and that reply from S&W has been posted on this board for a week. Guess cause the thread didn't say Walther on the lable, you just turned your Germanophile nose up at it...Huh
 

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BlueIron
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The fact remains that Walther designed and brought to market the P99 series of pistols, not Smith and Wesson. S&W has never engineered a world class automatic service pistol and the slight design changes that constitute the SW99 are not a complete product improvement,
Ok lets talk about the German design geniuses at Walther.

You can say what you like about S&W, but the fact is, that before they hired outside talent to design the 99, the boys in Ulm had not designed a pistol that sold in any numbers since the PPK and P-38 days.

Walther was twenty years behind the power curve on most of the inovations that ruled the U.S. market in the 70's and 80's. They did'nt make a pistol with a double column mag or a Mag release under the trigger guard until the rather ammo finicky 88. Their pistols were big clunky over priced hunks of junk for Germanophile collectors, seeking the Walther name.

On the other hand, Smith & Wesson sold more 59's in a single year, than the total sales of P-5's and P-88's spread out over 15 to 20 years. Mind you I'm talking about just one model in the S&W line. If Walther was selling WORLD class pistols in the 80's and 90's, the WORLD, sure wasn't buying them. H&K and Glock were stomping Walthers ass so bad that the boys in Ulm were worried they would go out of business...That was the State of Affairs at Walther before the 99 came along...for all of you who want to talk about S&W's problems before the Stratigic Partnership.
 

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S&W99OL.......... de-caf.
Your personal attack posts are not appreciated here.
Please tone it down.
If you really want to pass along information then do so without the attitude. If you can't post without "owning" someone then find another place to hang out.
...
Some of us here on the board think the SW99 is a fine pistol, there is no appreciable functional difference between it and the P99. Merely cosmetic differences, and minor materials differences.
...
Thanks for the additional info on the new S&W trigger. It will be interesting to see how it compares to the QA and P990.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Wow, didnt mean for my first post to turn into this!

I bought the P99 totally for looks. And almost went S/W for warranty reasons.  Im sure the S/W version is a fine handgun...and would expect both models to shoot pretty much the same....but Im new in the gun world!

I will say this....its a passionate group!
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Thats intresting, Just exacty how does a Nitride bonded finish "flake off" like paint...its bonded into the molecular structure of the metal. In order to "Flake off" it would have to take large chunks of the stainless with it.
My guess is that the finish S&W applied over the top of the Melonite did not bond for some reason. The black finish is actually a paint like finish applied after the Melonite.
I've seen some of the newer "shiny" finished Glocks with paint adhesion problems as well.
Tennifer/Melonite doesn't actualluy "color" the metal at all, a QPQ slide is what carbon steel looks like with just a Tennifer treatment.
If you polish away the black on a S&W, Glock, H&K, or Walther slide, you'll end up with a dull grey bare metal finish, but the Tennifer/Melonite treatment will be unaffected.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (JMac24 @ Nov. 07 2004,7:47)]Wow, didnt mean for my first post to turn into this!

I bought the P99 totally for looks. And almost went S/W for warranty reasons.
This is the first thread in 2 1/2 years that has had this "tone", and I'm not liking it. I hope this board doesn't degenerate into trolls and flames like others have.
...
btw: welcome to the board

...
While Walther only "officially" has a one year warranty, they replaced my 3 year old P99 slide "no questions asked" when I had a problem a few months ago.
Buy either the P99 or the SW99 with confidence, knowing you are getting a functional, reliable, quality pistol.
 
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