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Bhp9, some of your points are fair. Certainly no gun is perfect—certainly that applies to Walthers and the P88. And, no doubt, P35s are very accurate guns. My MKIII is a great gun and I do shoot it very accurately. It may indeed be as accurate as my P88c.

That said…

In my hands, my P88c seems more accurate. But that just could be a function of my hands and my eyes. Who knows. In any case, the P88 is definitely not inaccurate and I’d venture to say it’s among the most accurate of production service pistols.

The source of the derision on your posts comes from your unilateral statements about things like aluminum frames being unsuitable for handguns… or your unsolicited, out-of-the-blue pontification on the “myth” of P88 accuracy. It’s simply ridiculous to say aluminum alloy is unsuited for handguns. Sigs and Berettas can do 6-figure round counts with no frame cracks. Now, I’m not sure a P1 or a 39-2 could do that… but those aren’t exactly M9s.

If you find the P88’s accuracy unremarkable, that’s a fair opinion. But if you bring it up in a mocking, condescending way… out of nowhere… it just seems like you’re saying it to seem jaded.

Anyway, I too am a BHP fan and I can understand why you think so highly of those guns. But, if pressed, I think I’d take my P88c over the BHP.
I actually agree with much of what you say. Each aluminum framed handgun must be looked at through its own unique design and history as some do indeed last longer than others. But some of my remarks are universal. I have never owned any aluminum handgun that did not wear its rails down faster than a good forged steel frame gun. Admittedly frame rail can sometimes cause not much more than 10 per cent loss of accuracy but its the potential to chip and or disintegrate that is far greater than in steel frame guns.

Quality of aluminum is another factor. In the 1972 test Note Conducted between an aluminum frame Smith M39 and the Walther P38 proved the Walther had the better grade aluminum and better design as it came through the test without major breakage while the Smith actually disintegrated at only 5,500 rounds for both pistols. Not that the Walther designed frame did not have problems as it suffered frame wear and a mushrooming of the recoil abutment. This was later improved by putting a steel hexagonal pin through the frame to absorb the pounding of the slide in the very last of the P38 manufacture before it was discontinued. It was carried over into the P5 design as well as other design improvements too numerous to mention here.. But that is another story. This type of technology was not lost on later designed guns from both German and Italian designers. It though in no way equaled a steel frame gun and as much as I find plastic pistols rather repulsive some plastic designed pistols also incorporating this technology were able to last longer than aluminum framed guns with the same technology, probably because of the carbide buttons used in the frame to slide contact which cut way down on frame to slide wear. Of course some plasticky designed frames can flex and crack sooner than aluminum frame guns which goes back to each design being unique with its own set of problems.

I would further go out on a limb and say when a gun is dropped on concrete the plasticky framed gun will flex and if it does not flex too much it will survive the drop without cracking but the aluminum frame gun will often crack. Being fair cast steel guns often crack as well when dropped while forged frame steel guns many times will survive the fall better but no gun is totally immune from serious damage. I therefore put aluminum framed guns on the bottom of the list as surviving a fall.

In conclusion I do agree with you and that is that no handgun is perfect and all have their problems. What I do object to is glossing over the problems or deliberately trying to hide or ignore this information as to not hurt the prospective buyer or owner's feelings and promote a harlequin view that every handgun ever made is perfect in every way and lets god forbid never hurt handgun sales by telling the truth about any of their design deficiencies. Lay it all out on the table so the prospective buyer can decide if he can live with both the advantages and disadvantages of his chosen new handgun purchase.

And now for the surprise ending. I do not carry a High Power rather I carry a plasticky pistol despite throwing up every time I see or handle one. Why? Cost, reliability, availability of spare parts, and rust elimination of the frame, and much lighter weight for a more comfortable carry all day long. I have from time to time carried old fashioned steel frame .380's for extremely hot weather but will admit that there are plasticky pistols that are the same size and available and lighter in weight and often way cheaper in price but again in small .380 plasticky guns I have indeed seen plasticky framed guns crack.

For pride of ownership and long lasting accuracy I prefer the forged steel frame gun, for carry I prefer plastic. Cast steel and forged aluminum frame guns are at the bottom of my list even though I own both in many brands and models. And no I will not be selling my Walther P88, I like the workmanship and snob appeal so if you wish go ahead and throw rocks at me for succumbing to snob appeal. My P88 was and always will be nothing more than a display piece and range toy. And surprise so will be all my High Powers as well. Although I hate plasticky guns with a passion time moves on and they have too many advantages to ignore as long as you remember to take your stomach medicine before carrying them.
 

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Sorry buddy boy but I have actual hands on experience and testing that you reject with the wave of the hand because it did not suit your political agenda. You also rejected with the wave of the hand actual testing by the U.S. Military because to you it was irrelevant because you disagreed with it. You rejected the tests done by George Nonte of Shooting Times magazine because again it did not support your view points based on "love" not actual reality testing.

In conclusion I stand by what I posted and I have plenty of verified information to support what I posted while you simply have no valid information supporting your view point. You also tend to support the far right philosophy that always claims "If the military adopted it, it had to be perfect in every way". Again history has proven you wrong many times over because the militaries of the world from time to time adopted some real failures of small arms. Not always of course but enough to prove my point many times over. I could give you a long dissertation on U.S. military small arms that either failed or were inferior to their contemporary foreign arms but again you would reject history with the wave of the hand.

And you accuse me of pandering fudd but in reality its your fudd that has no historical proof through valid testing.
Okay then cite your sources on these data points you are so insistent is universal in the firearms industry. My cat and I have been trying to validate your "truths". I didn't really find the data to prove your claims, but here's the best I could come up with. Since you can't seem to agree to disagree, I found some info that all of us could be entertained and schooled by.

Dropping the slide on P30sk? (Page 1, Post 16)

In praise of the P30, P30L & P30SK (Page 2, Post 30)

How hot are P7's right now?? (Page 4, Post 65)

Thoughts on Buying a Well Used P7-Series Gun for Carry? (Page 3, Post 51)

Lee Load All (Page 2, Post 26)

Mec is now producing junk (Page 1, Post 1)

Size compared P99 vs HK P30 (Page 1, Post 7)

First range trip with P99 (Page 1, Post 20)

P99 - Scratch build (Page 1, Post 7)

Why not carry the AS trigger on the light side (Page 3, Post 41)

Pandemic Pistol (Page 2, Post 29)

Reloading - Over the top or Slide Stop (Page 1, Post 20)

Walther P5 vs. Sig P6: Range Report (Page 1, Post 13)

Trying to cock a P99 using the trigger ... (Page 2, Post 23)

P99 still in production? (Page 1, Post 8)


Unfortunately I didn't have the privellege of "shootin' pistols and first reloadin' since 1968", and so far it seems to be that your "facts" are anecdotal and hardly universal. But hey, I get that living in the old days, talking tall tales to those of us youngsters who don't know any better, is more your speed. Gotta be a subject matter expert based on time behind the gun. Only thing I gathered is:

-bhp9 is actually CORRECT in most of his posts I've seen, but he CAN'T be proven wrong. Because he read it, saw it on imright.com or gun advice from the Bible of John Moses Browning, that those scriptures are also irrefutable and non-negotiable.

-when you get called out to prove your statements, you never provide links, lead others to the correct data.

-hates night sights

-tells people aluminum combat pistols are garbage, but owns them.

-tells people Glocks are dangerous, but carries them

-Walther sucks for him because pick a reason, proceeds to tell us it will happen to us too. JUST WATCH!

-when you go on your dramatic, fantasyland tirades, you have zero problems disrespecting people in the process, from newbies, to senior members, and even incredibly patient moderators.

Rather than continually feeding the troll, I won't argue with you, but it doesn't make you right all the time. Frankly, my take away from this is everyone is a winner in every thread you participate in. You will be right, we'll be entertained, everyone is happy. I did however have a good hour or two of entertainment at your expense. Thanks for making objective threads like this one another record for the history books :D (y)

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
Is there documentation for the IDF using them? It would seem to be a seriously strange thing for a military to use a gun no longer in production.

Is 4000 the real cutoff number for the frame cracking?

How true is it that this is an exceptionally accurate handgun - I've heard both sides from owners - that it is THE most accurate gun they own, and some who say its good but not remarkable. My CZs are VERY accurate. P guns and 75s.
 

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Accuracy is a funny thing. It means different things to different people.

It can be difficult to measure without a ransom rest and a bunch of different loads.

As many know, there are guns that shoot mediocre with some loads but will shoot spectacularly with a particular load. The opposite is also true.

What most people mean when they say a gun is accurate is they shoot it a little better than they might shoot a different gun.

Just about any gun sold will chew out the center of the target at five or seven yards.

Things get more interesting at 25 or better yet 50 yards. Different guns will differentiate themselves more at those distances.

Unless the gun is damaged or really bad, at close range it's mostly us.

My core point is people are often not on the same page when they talk about Accuracy.
 

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Is there documentation for the IDF using them? It would seem to be a seriously strange thing for a military to use a gun no longer in production.

Is 4000 the real cutoff number for the frame cracking?

How true is it that this is an exceptionally accurate handgun - I've heard both sides from owners - that it is THE most accurate gun they own, and some who say its good but not remarkable. My CZs are VERY accurate. P guns and 75s.
According to Mishaco's videos regarding the P88 and it's variants, the P88 was in use with a few Israeli Law Enforcement agencies. He never mentioned who they were but it seems a steady stream of them do come stateside via Israel. Would love to know the answer to this as well.

Considering that it doesn't have some legendary trigger break or anything special, for a DA/SA handgun I have found it to be super accurate and I can't explain why (I've had 3, ranging from 4000,6000,8000 range of serial number). Tight chamber? Possibly. And I have shmedium hands which aren't quite ideal given the girth of the grips.Either way it's probably on par with my Jericho 941 and P7M13 in the iron sighted accuracy department.

🤷‍♂️
EDIT: looked through Micha's videos and I guess I misheard him about the Israeli connection. However, looking through @lifesizepotato videos, I found this oddball comment

"Can´t tell you exactly where but my agency bought about 2000 of these in the nineties, all service guns have a point in which they will start developing problems, but in these, at about the 4000 round mark the frames would start showing small cracks and were basically clunkers ......all 2000 were returned and exchanged for the S&W 5906......I don´t think any police or military unit in the western world carries this gun anymore "

Take this with a grain of salt. Would be interesting to note which agencies used the 5906 and maybe narrow down which department is mentioned?
 

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I am really enjoying this tread, seems all P88 knowledge over the years is coming together here…….BHP9, be cool bro and lets have a positive, non argumental debate and assume people mean well and perhaps they just dont know things and that is where you can be a great contributor as it seems you have a lot of knowledge that you clearly want to share with us but you got to work a tat on the delivery…….you can do it, never to old or to late……peace!

Oh on the honest point……..I think you are right…I might be a tat snobbish…….lol…but that does not mean I am rich…just proud I have a P88..
 

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According to Mishaco's videos regarding the P88 and it's variants, the P88 was in use with a few Israeli Law Enforcement agencies. He never mentioned who they were but it seems a steady stream of them do come stateside via Israel. Would love to know the answer to this as well.

Considering that it doesn't have some legendary trigger break or anything special, for a DA/SA handgun I have found it to be super accurate and I can't explain why (I've had 3, ranging from 4000,6000,8000 range of serial number). Tight chamber? Possibly. And I have shmedium hands which aren't quite ideal given the girth of the grips.Either way it's probably on par with my Jericho 941 and P7M13 in the iron sighted accuracy department.

🤷‍♂️
EDIT: looked through Micha's videos and I guess I misheard him about the Israeli connection. However, looking through @lifesizepotato videos, I found this oddball comment

"Can´t tell you exactly where but my agency bought about 2000 of these in the nineties, all service guns have a point in which they will start developing problems, but in these, at about the 4000 round mark the frames would start showing small cracks and were basically clunkers ......all 2000 were returned and exchanged for the S&W 5906......I don´t think any police or military unit in the western world carries this gun anymore "

Take this with a grain of salt. Would be interesting to note which agencies used the 5906 and maybe narrow down which department is mentioned?
You have good idea Romeo but it's not going to be easy as the 5906 was a widely issued pistol.
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 · (Edited)
So the gun I lusted over is less than 4000, and the DA trigger is both way long in reach, heavy, extremely long travel, and some stacking at the very end. SA is stagey then a decent break. If the trigger were superb I’d have been tempted. And the grip girth is pretty huge. Not for me.

Is it a high quality pistol? Yes, but I was expecting a much better trigger for a gun that gets so much praise.
 

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So the gun I lusted over is less than 4000, and the DA trigger is both way long in reach, heavy, extremely long travel, and some stacking at the very end. SA is stagey then a decent break. If the trigger were superb I’d have been tempted. And the grip girth is pretty huge. Not for me.

Is it a high quality pistol? Yes, but I was expecting a much better trigger for a gun that gets so much praise.
Was it a P88 or the compact?
We all have our own taste and needs, some like Honda, some like Chevy, some like fat some like skinny………thats why for everybody there is something…………..is there better out there, I am sure there is, but like marriage, ones you are committed in my case thats what I stay in love with even if I find out some flaws…..hey man…whatever works right……by the way, try the competition or champion trigger when you have a chance……..you might be impressed with that.
 

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So the gun I lusted over is less than 4000, and the DA trigger is both way long in reach, heavy, extremely long travel, and some stacking at the very end. SA is stagey then a decent break. If the trigger were superb I’d have been tempted. And the grip girth is pretty huge. Not for me.

Is it a high quality pistol? Yes, but I was expecting a much better trigger for a gun that gets so much praise.
I hear you. It’s definitely an acquired taste. It’s probably akin to the Beretta 92/Sig P226 DA/SA in terms of feel. It’s really about perspective, and the value probably isn’t in the trigger, it’s in its interesting history and lineage.

If you want to discuss disappointing triggers, I felt the same way when I bought a Walther Q5 SF. For the cost you wonder why they didn’t just come with the DPT right out of the box instead of the standard PPQ trigger. The trigger was creepier than our POTUS.
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
Did it feel tight and total quality? YES indeed. While the grip made a standard 92FS feel thin, the controls are cool - you can also use the firing hand middle finger to easily get to the mag catch - cuz unless you have monkey thumbs you won't touch the one near your shooting thumb.

Don't want to start a row, but I finally handled a Bersa design clone. Seemingly decent gun. Grip was thinner but lacks the ambi mag release - not good. Sure the quality is not there but the controls are decent and the DA was smooth the whole way - albeit that looonnnng pull. Wonder how they are.
 

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Did it feel tight and total quality? YES indeed. While the grip made a standard 92FS feel thin, the controls are cool - you can also use the firing hand middle finger to easily get to the mag catch - cuz unless you have monkey thumbs you won't touch the one near your shooting thumb.

Don't want to start a row, but I finally handled a Bersa design clone. Seemingly decent gun. Grip was thinner but lacks the ambi mag release - not good. Sure the quality is not there but the controls are decent and the DA was smooth the whole way - albeit that looonnnng pull. Wonder how they are.
Yeah thats one of the main reasons I like the P88 over the compact or any other pistol I know, the ambidextrous slide release/de cocker….its so cool and comfortable….of course personal taste. I dont like the bulky grip but as a right handed left eye dominant its actually fitting my small hands properly due to the slight grip correction…..the trigger indeed could be better, thats why I gave up using it at IDPA…..and using per Romeos recommendation the Q5 SF with trigger mods and some other mods. Still I carry the P88 (car, bag, on my desk) as it is just a nice piece to have with me….and to shoot at the range, never get tired from it.
 

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Okay then cite your sources on these data points you are so insistent is universal in the firearms industry. My cat and I have been trying to validate your "truths". I didn't really find the data to prove your claims, but here's the best I could come up with. Since you can't seem to agree to disagree, I found some info that all of us could be entertained and schooled by.

Dropping the slide on P30sk? (Page 1, Post 16)

In praise of the P30, P30L & P30SK (Page 2, Post 30)

How hot are P7's right now?? (Page 4, Post 65)

Thoughts on Buying a Well Used P7-Series Gun for Carry? (Page 3, Post 51)

Lee Load All (Page 2, Post 26)

Mec is now producing junk (Page 1, Post 1)

Size compared P99 vs HK P30 (Page 1, Post 7)

First range trip with P99 (Page 1, Post 20)

P99 - Scratch build (Page 1, Post 7)

Why not carry the AS trigger on the light side (Page 3, Post 41)

Pandemic Pistol (Page 2, Post 29)

Reloading - Over the top or Slide Stop (Page 1, Post 20)

Walther P5 vs. Sig P6: Range Report (Page 1, Post 13)

Trying to cock a P99 using the trigger ... (Page 2, Post 23)

P99 still in production? (Page 1, Post 8)


Unfortunately I didn't have the privellege of "shootin' pistols and first reloadin' since 1968", and so far it seems to be that your "facts" are anecdotal and hardly universal. But hey, I get that living in the old days, talking tall tales to those of us youngsters who don't know any better, is more your speed. Gotta be a subject matter expert based on time behind the gun. Only thing I gathered is:

-bhp9 is actually CORRECT in most of his posts I've seen, but he CAN'T be proven wrong. Because he read it, saw it on imright.com or gun advice from the Bible of John Moses Browning, that those scriptures are also irrefutable and non-negotiable.

-when you get called out to prove your statements, you never provide links, lead others to the correct data.

-hates night sights

-tells people aluminum combat pistols are garbage, but owns them.

-tells people Glocks are dangerous, but carries them

-Walther sucks for him because pick a reason, proceeds to tell us it will happen to us too. JUST WATCH!

-when you go on your dramatic, fantasyland tirades, you have zero problems disrespecting people in the process, from newbies, to senior members, and even incredibly patient moderators.

Rather than continually feeding the troll, I won't argue with you, but it doesn't make you right all the time. Frankly, my take away from this is everyone is a winner in every thread you participate in. You will be right, we'll be entertained, everyone is happy. I did however have a good hour or two of entertainment at your expense. Thanks for making objective threads like this one another record for the history books :D (y)

View attachment 105496
quote-------------------Okay then cite your sources on these data points -----------quote

You were given the sources and they were well documented by the U.S. Military and experts in the firearms field such as Jeff Cooper and Major George Note both of whom you insulted and you rejected them all. You were given my own experience as well as previously mentioned historical documentation with the above pictured handguns and with aluminum frame handguns and their failures and or shortcomings and you rejected those as well. I might add the catastrophic failure of my modern day Radom Mag98 as well as my Smith M39's and Colt Commander was also very dramatic and irrefutable proof that not all aluminum framed handguns were designed as well as they should have been. Your response was "Do not confuse me with any facts, personal experience or documentation by experts as I want to remain oblivious to it all so that my harlequin romance with handguns will not be shattered ".

The educated and mature firearms enthusiast is well aware that mechanical devices, guns , automobiles , airplanes etc are seldom perfect and without design flaws or disadvantages when using them. Being aware of these facts enable a prospective buyer to make a more intelligent choice before laying down his hard earned money for a purchase. To attempt to prevent such information from being disseminated because of a harlequin viewpoint is not in the best interest of anyone. Serious students of the gun do not end up getting a big unexpected and unwelcomed surprise after their purchase because they have done their homework well ahead of time. They carefully weigh both the plus and minus factors and then live with their purchase decisions. Just as when one choses a wife the temporary infatuation eventually dissipates and reality soon sets in because there is no perfect wife or perfect side arm either, they all have their flaws, some of them quite dramatic. The old foxes (including myself who you have insulted as being out of date) are well aware of handgun history through long personal experience, experimentation and education.

I think the internet has brought a lot of information about handguns and firearms that heretofore was never available to the average gun collector or firearms enthusiast because when one had to rely on information coming form the printed gun-zines the flaws were often (but not always) either ignored or completely glossed over and often even hidden. After all, the gun writers job was to sell more guns, not reveal any dirty laundry about them. Attempting to turn the internet into a modern day gun-zine is attempting to turn back the clock on history and preserve ignorance about firearms.

I have found too that when you reveal any flaws in firearms design, especially handguns, that often is like taking away a security blanket from the gun owner because on the sub-conscience level they panic and panic turns into aggression even though the disseminator of the information was in reality only trying to help them be aware of what the design flaws might be in their favorite millennium blaster.

Since I am not a gun writer I am free to tell the truth about firearms and you can accept or reject my experience with them because it is not my money you are spending when you purchase one. Caveat Emptor, good advice 2,000 years ago and still good advice today. Ignore it at your own peril.
 

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This is a good thread. It is interesting, entertaining and informative.

But...the little personal digs are just not necessary.

I ask all involved to stop it.

If you can't figure out how to post without subtly or not subtly taking a shot at someone who may disagree with you; think twice before you post.
 

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This is a good thread. It is interesting, entertaining and informative.

But...the little personal digs are just not necessary.

I ask all involved to stop it.

If you can't figure out how to post without subtly or not subtly taking a shot at someone who may disagree with you; think twice before you post.
Read this, clearly this seller knows what he is talking about comparing the high power with the P88 compact…….take that bhp9………..lol……(is this a subtly shot!)….
 
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