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Discussion Starter #1
Am new to the Walther Forum. Just bought a Model 2 and after reading many of the very helpful posts (and the video!) wanted to ask about a few differences on my gun. I understand the "K" in the serial number likely indicates later manufacture. I was intrigued by several things when I bought this rifle. Note the stock "veers" to the right. It does not go straight back. Hope photos show that well enough. How common is this? Did Walther sell specifically right hander and left hander stocked rifles? Also note there is a forward and a rear scope mount I thought was really neat. Looks factory. Anyone have one of these with the actual scope mounts and scope? Would like to know what I should start hunting for. On the right side of the barrel, after the Crown/B /U /G there appears a numeral "57" and possible an m/r (?). What does that mean? Barrel is 24 3/8" or 62 cm. Left side I assume that is an elaborate commercial manufacturer eagle proof specific to Walther before the C/N and Nitro script? No waffenamts. I ordered recoil springs from W.C. Wolff based on a previous thread (THANKS for that head's up!). 5 round mag feeds snap caps very well, but will order a new one from Earl Sheehan for the range. Hope the photos for above work, and added a few more photos based on what I saw requested from other threads. Thanks for the help!
Front Sight Side View.jpg
Front Sling Mount affixed to barrel.jpg
Rear Sight.jpg
Rear Stock Swivel.jpg
Right Hand Shooter angled stock 4.jpg
Right Hand Shooter angled stock.jpg
SN 33825 K on left trigger guard.jpg
Upper left side view of rear scope mount and safety toggle 2.jpg
Upper left side view of rear scope mount and safety toggle.jpg
Breech face with scope mount.jpg
 

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My factory sales literature does not indicate specialized directional stocks. In your eighth and ninth photos, I notice a crack at the hand-guard on the left side which would lead me to think the rifle had some stock damage.

The rear milled area behind the safety is factory original to allow the use of specialized rear sights like diopter. You didn’t show the front “scope” mount.

The BUG proofs indicate proofing before January 15, 1940. I am not familiar with the “eagle” marking you describe. Can you provide a picture?

I would think the 57 is simply a factory assembly number.

You have equipped the rifle with new springs and such, so you intend to shoot it. A word of caution. These rifles were designed for .22 ammunition well below the norms of modern manufacture. Bob Simpson warned me of the ammo difference but I did not heed his words. I had a bolt handle break off years ago at a range. If you must shoot, use the lowest energy rated ammo you can find.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks Poloberst! Yes, there is a thin crack on the left side by the tang and it continues on the right side. Hairlines. Am no expert... would repairs of some sort cause such a noticeable cant to the right? My probable misuse of term "scope" mount. Saw the front and rear dovetails and thought that. The front dovetail is right above the chamber. Attaching a photo of the elaborate eagle. Looks identical to the other Walther rifle pics. Is this found only on the Walther? Yep, I did see your warning post on the ammo. Presume locking the bolt so it will not cycle negates that kind of failure, and will use subsonic ammo. I met and chatted with Mr. Simpson a few times in Galesburg and am reading through his Training Rifles of the Third Reich book. Page 590 - Sport Trainers, depicts a Walther Model 2 under the caption Walther Sportmodell Semi-Auto Series 1. I have always enjoyed spending time at Simpson's in Galesburg, Illinois. Maybe take my new rifle there and see what they think about the stock. Might just be bent somehow...? Again, thanks for your help and thoughts!
Crack on left side by diopter mount.jpg
Crack on right side by diopter mount.jpg
Front Dovetail above breech.jpg
Left Side barrel markings.jpg
 

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I think the stock has a stress fracture from the bend to right.

The eagle would be part of the Beschuss stempel. Proof mark.

The Walthers were offered with different configurations. Attached a copy of US add for them showing the diopter/peep sight. Mine is E/N and later at 349xxK. It doesn't have the rear tang set for scope mount or diopter mount. Just the forward scope grooves are cut. My Model 1 was configured as below with the scope.

Simpson's book on trainers was a labor of love. I helped him by writing the police trainer chapter.
CCF09292014_0001.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hi All,

Since my posts above I disassembled and cleaned oiled or greased parts, and removed the original recoil spring. My original is bent in the middle, and I can see how easily that would happen. One end of the 12 1/2 cm +/-, or about 4 7/8", spring is supported by an internal metal pin about an inch and a half long. The rest is free and when you reassemble if you are not VERY careful the spring does not all go into its drilled out receptacle but will easily just flex, bend, and suffer permanent damage. I bought a new set of 10 precision gunsprings (they sell one spring or a set of 10) from Wolff Company of Newtown Square, PA. Stock Number 16873, Item: Recoil Spring Extra Power. For Use In: Walther Model 1, .22 Rifle. No thought I would need 10 replacement springs, but having extra parts is always beneficial. The Wolff spring is visually heavier than the original. I am very pleased with it. Seems fine quality and certainly fit right in.

Today I finally was able to go to an indoor 100 yard range. I fired about 40 rounds total (1 hour range time limit) using SK Match Pistol, SK Match Rifle, Sellier & Bellot Subsonic, and Winchester Super Suppressed, which is a 45 grain bullet. This is a very nice rifle to shoot!

Must say the Walther drew attention at the range. Rangemaster walked up, said he collects .22 rifles, but had never seen one like this. I let him shoot a few rounds.

I fired almost all the rounds from a locked bolt to avoid cycling stress using semi auto mode. I fired 5 rounds semiauto and it is super neat the way it works. One round however short shucked and got smashed by the returning bolt (which is really driven by what I guess is the heavier "extra power" spring). Perhaps the new heavy recoil spring retards the bolt blowback to where semiauto loading is affected? I did not try this enough to really see. The ammo I brought loaded very well manually to the locked bolt.

Quick question, maybe Poloberst knows an answer. There is a seller on eBay from Bulgaria offering Walther diopter sights that appear "possibly" compatible with my Model 2. They run $125 to $225 and my Model 2 does have the rear diopter attachment. I have email the sellers to ask, but thought to see if anyone knew whether these might work for the Model 2 or are for later, perhaps post-war Walthers? Might give me a better chance of hitting the target with my 65 year old eyes!


Oh, and found the front sight was loose after shooting (probably was loose when I bought the gun but failed to check that) so I took it all apart this afternoon. Talk about a lot of machine tool steps. The sight blade slides into a slot with a semi-circular rear. Under it is a sprung flat metal piece with an eyelet at the shooter's end, held down by a very small fine thread machine screw. Once you have all that out, cleaned, and back together, an ever so tiny bit of stamped, curved metal, perhaps 3 mm, is placed under the sprung flat metal piece at the very front, and you gently tap it home with a brass punch, or I did. Front sight is now completely tight. Thanking lucky stars I did not loose that little 3 mm piece. I suppose Walther used this method on many of its fixed front sights?

Decided to not mess with the slightly bent stock. It is what it is, and does not hamper my shooting.

Thanks!

V/R., Dan
 

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If your rifle is 11mm grooved, then I would surmise the sights would fit. Have no idea as to the functionality with Walther rifles.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Yes, the dovetail is 11mm. I ordered the diopter and if it works I will do a short write up. It appears to place the diopter closer to the shooter than the advertising photo. I assume the tiny hole must line up through the v notch of the rear sight (never used one of these). Thanks for your help, Joe!
 

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Sad to say your 11mm sight purchase will not work. The ones you have pictured are for guns of the 1950s onward type target guns. The dovetail would be at the rear of the receiver and the sight body hangs out over the back over the thumb. You might could attach to your 11 mm dovetail in front of the breech, but that would have hte sight overhang in the way of your loading gate. AND, no doubt, the height would be totally incompatible with the front sight.

The proper diopter sight for you gun is pictured in Joe's brochure, and fits into the square hole at the back of your reciever, similar to many sight sets of the pre-war years.

I am inspired by the ebay prices. I need to clean out some of my drawers of these things collecting rust and dust.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks for your insight! Yeah, I kind of figured, but thought to take the chance. Caveat emptor, eh... Now I will have to put yet another thing into my own drawer of things! You wouldn't have a diopter made for the Model 2 you might be willing to sell by any chance in that drawer? I would love to actually have one and see how it works. I did find that placing a small dab of liquid white out on the back of the front sight is very helpful.

Not sure there are enough of these Walther Model 2's out there anyone is keeping a serial number list, but I goofed in the title. S/N is 33825K (it is clear in the photo) but I mis-typed 33875K.

Thanks for your help!

Dan
 

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No. I definately don't have one.. would like to for peepsight collection.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Would guess rare enough cost would be more than one of the rifles... Did anyone come up with an idea how many Model 2s may have been made?
 

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Difficult to estimate the production numbers with Walther rifles, as the serial numbers of all rifles were concurrent until the late 1930s when Walther introduced model suffixes for all weapons. Yours of course is pre-Jan 1940. I have a unused complete receiver for a Model II that is E/N and in the 35,400 K range.
 
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Discussion Starter #13
Joe - does concurrent mean all the Walther rifles used one and the same consecutive line of serial number? So a batch of Model 2 might end with S/N XXXXX, while Walther designated the next batch of, say Model 5 to begin with S/N XXXXX plus 1, etc.? Hope I am making sense with this question....
 

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Sorry to not be clear. PPs and PPKs were produced in the same serial number run until the suffixes were introduced. It appears the .22 rifles were produced in the same serial number run, with several Model 1s produced and consecutively numbered followed by some Model 2s, then some Sportmodells and eventually DSM34s. Then suffixes were introduced: k for Karabiner, w for Sportmodell series, S for KKWs and D for DSM 34s.
 

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You wouldn't have a diopter made for the Model 2 you might be willing to sell by any chance in that drawer?
I'm in the market for one too. I just got an email from Earl and he doesn't have any either.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Cornell Publications (www.cornellpubs.com), a seller of reproduction firearms literature, just sent me a copy of the 16-page brochure “1936 Walther Carbines – Automatic, Repeating, or Single Shot.” It deals solely with the Walther Model 1 and Model 2 rifles.

Advice posted in the thread above appeared in 1936. I wanted to share how interesting that is.

Page 5 presents a chart showing “ballistic data.” The muzzle claim is 330 meters per second (m/s), converting to 1083 fps. Bullet weight is not given. The 330 m/s figure also appears on page 60 of the Robert Simpson book about German training rifles, and the DSM – 34 “Deutches SportModell” single shot had about the same 24 ½” barrel length as the Model 2.

Today’s common .22LR is often much faster than 1083 fps, a nominally subsonic figure. The issue for Walther Model 1 or 2 rifle appears in the effect it has on how forcefully the bolt is thrown backwards. The bolt handle is reportedly not an integral part of the bolt, but a separate piece brazed on. The bolt handle stops the bolt’s rearward travel against the rear upper receiver. Higher velocity .22LR puts more inertia into the bolt as it moves inside the upper receiver, referred to in the 1936 Walther brochure as the “breech case.” If I interpret correctly, Walther seems to say a stiffer spring is needed to handle that in this quote at the bottom of page 14 from 1936.

“All the Walther Carbines supplied in Great Britain by our agents in England are regulated for shooting with English .22 long rifle ammunition of regular velocity. A stronger recoil spring is obtainable at a small extra cost, if desired for the use of American & British High Speed .22 cal. Long Rifle cartridges.”

Walther cites original springs not up to the higher velocity ammo. Perhaps Walther knew the brazed bolt handle could break off if you do not have a stronger spring to retard the bolt on blowback.

Page 9 has an important assembly warning about that recoil spring. Under the caption “The Cleaning of the Walther carbine is extremely simple,” appears the following:

“To assemble the breech case.

Put recoil spring (long guide of same remaining outside) into the handle-piece and push into breech case; pull bolt by means of the bolt handle backward (be careful not to bend the recoil spring!) [bold emphasis mine] and lock the bolt handle down into the rear groove.”


I found kinky spring damage when first disassembling the breech case on my two Walther Model 2 rifles. Please see the photographs. One photo shows the kinks in both older springs, compared to a new Wolff spring. In a second photo I was hoping to show how the spring starts to kink if you do not properly guide it into the bolt when forcing the bolt against spring pressure back into the breech case. In a third photo, note the front of the spring is visible from under the unlocked bolt handle. The front has a small cylindrical hardened steel button with a cutout at its base the spring end snaps into. Those little things are darn hard to get out from the forward end of the spring. The new manufacture “Extra Power” Wolff spring is .030”, and thicker than the original .028”. It is longer but the winding is not as tight. I have no idea what any of that means dynamically. Subjectively, pulling the bolt back against the new “Extra Power” Wolff spring takes more effort.

On another vulnerable part of the rifle, a warning is found on Page 10 about damaging the “striker” (firing pin):


“To prevent breaking the striker it is advisable to avoid snapping the action without a cartridge in the chamber.”


Intentional dry firing without a snap cap is good advice. In working with my guns on the range, I see another reason. My guess is over time semi-auto mode shooters simply failed to count the rounds while firing. There is no hold open so after you fire the last round the bolt will close on an empty chamber, with the hammer cocked. Most You Tube videos show best practices demonstrating semi-auto, but I found two videos, a Model 1 and a Model 2, where the shooter continues until it does not go bang; one trigger pull more than the rounds in the mag. Wondering, if you catch the inertia just right, that causes the breech face firing pin indentation damage?

Those seeking to learn more about 1930s German .22 rifles should enjoy Bob Simpson’s massive, informative book. Its focus is on the DSM and KKW Third Reich training rifles, though sporting and target rifles do get mention. The Walther Models 1 and 2 appear on page 490, with the note that overall, comparatively fewer of these semi-auto capable bolt action rifles were believed made.

A likely reason few sold appears in the Stackpole Classic Gun Book; MAUSER, WALTHER and MANNLICHER FIREARMS by W.H.B. Smith. Pages 175 and 176 of the Walther section cover the Model 1 and 2 rifles, stating: “Relatively few Walther rifles were imported in the United States prior to World War II. Stoeger Catalog No. 23 offered a ‘Walther .22 Caliber Automatic Target Rifle.’” After detailing how these rifles worked, and basic data, the issue of outsized cost at least in the export market comes up. “The high cost ($66.00) of this rifle may very well have been the prime reason for its failure to sell in the United States. Sixty-six dollars for a .22 rifle was a great deal of money in the early 1930s. The Winchester standard Model 52 target rifle complete with a Lyman 48-J receiver sight then only cost about $62.42.” Walther extras also cost and included the now elusive peep sight at $8.50 or a Zeiss 2 ½ X scope, an additional $70!

Recoil Spring Set Comparison with New Replacement Springs.jpg


Recoil Spring 2.jpg


Recoil Springs Visible Under Bolt 3.jpg


Side by side SN 3.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Ooops, meant to say NOT good to intentionally dry fire in third to last paragraph. Where is my thought checker when I need it??? Anyway, hope this post is helpful!
 

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Very interesting. Bob Simpson always cautioned me not to use modern .22 ammo in these old Walther semi-autos. I didnt listen and the bolt handle cracked off mine when my daughter was using it at a range. A local magician performed an excellent repair.
 
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DLBanks, again the material you presented above is very interesting. I have studied the .22 Walther pistols and rifles a bit. What collectors fail to realize is the difference in German .22 ammo in the 1930s. There were two types produced: ammo for bolt action rifles and ammo for semi-auto pistols and rifles. Here is a study I did a few years ago comparing their ammo and "modern" .22 ammo.

"The differences in the two types of .22 ammunition that I described above prompted me to investigate the matter further. I thought that the special ammunition developed in the 1930s for the semi-automatic pistols and rifles produced by Walther and other arms makers featured a higher charge of propellant. Reading the material available in Bock's book "Moderne Faustfeuerwaffen", it is evident the materials used in the cartridges was identical but the materials were prepared differently. The .22 lr and .22 kurz cartridge cases were nickle plated to facilitate extraction from the chambers of the semi-auto actions. The casings of those.22 cartridges were made of tomback, a mixture of copper and zinc. Not at all like the brass used in modern .22 cartridges. The material is soft and the cartridges were prone to gettnig hung up during extraction apparently.

There has been some discussion elsewhere on the dangers of using modern .22 ammunition in these weapons. Many speak of the danger of hi-velocity cartridges in these old actions. I thought I would gather some data from period references to demonstrate that there was a distinct difference in the production standards of .22 ammo 70 years ago. As you can see in this chart I prepared, standard .22 ammo of that period had values almost 30% less in all categories. I can attest to the potential problems."
94282

German .22 ammo from the 1930s for their semi-auto weapons was differentiated from ammo for bolt action rifles by a distinctive green label around the edges of the box. All Walther .22 semi auto weapons were advertised to be used only with this special ammunition. As explained above, the cartridge cases were made differently, though the powder and bullet specs were the same. This particular box of .22 kurz was used with the Walther Olympic Schnellfeuer pistol.
94281

A mentioned above, I was not careful when shooting my Model 2 and the bolt handle broke. I was not sure it could be repaired, so in a weaker moment Simpson sold me a complete action for a Walther Model 2 and I exchanged the bolts.
IMG_0524_zpsced3fc52.jpg
mod2actionright_zpsc2a0386b.jpg

Luckily I found a craftsman who performed a miracle on the handle.
 
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Discussion Starter #20
Joe, thanks for your review, and the opportunity to use this forum to share my observations moving along. Always learning.

A lot is going on in your chart, and I may need some coaching to understand what it is saying beyond the well taken point about how relatively hot 1960s .22 US ammo is.

I am guessing the indicated breech pressure figures apply only to the horizontal line in which they appear in your chart. So the German circa 1930s 39.3516 grain .22LR at 330 M/S (1083 FPS and subsonic) does that with 16,508 PSI breech pressure while the American .22LR StV standard velocity at 40 grains is 350 M/S muzzle velocity (1148 FPS and supersonic) but shows a much greater breech pressure of 24,000 PSI. Wanted to ask if you might be able to clarify this. The breech pressure comparison with 40 grain bullets, German to American, shows only 20 M/S greater velocity with a breech pressure 31.21% greater. And you did mention the 30% across the board velocity difference. Why isn't the speed differential far greater? With speed of sound at 1125 FPS, all three American 40 grain rounds in the chart are cited as at or above supersonic. I see the citations below those first three 40 grain US rounds are lighter 29 grain bullets of the L and Kurz rounds. One of the 40 grain citations (3rd from top in US) is noted as an HV 6 (High Velocity 6) just supersonic at 1125 FPS, where "HV 6" is defined as fired from a 6" barrel. Is that really possible in a 1960s .22LR from a 6"? I own a S&W Model 48-2 in 6" and it fires supersonic at that barrel length but it is a magnum rimfire and there is a huge muzzle flash. I noted you mentioned finding stats on both the pistols and rifles though.

Wanted also to ask how your chart might correlate with the Ballistic Data chart on page 5 of the 1936 Walther Model 1 and Model 2 brochure which shows the same subsonic muzzle velocity of 330 M/S. Walther's Model 2, a redesigned Model 1 meant to mimic more closely the K98k, has the longer barrel at 24 1/2". This brochure cites the Model 1 as a 20 1/2" barrel. Do we know what rifle barrel length your data is based on? Maybe that is not relevant given the point you are well making though... and I am hardly in my depth.

I use the term "supersonic" as a High Velocity caution not to use that hot a round in the older guns, and admit doing that adds another term not in your chart. German Match .22LR, such as the case of GECO I recently bought, states 1080 FPS on the box. (Assume that is the old Gustav Genschow GECO, but seems a subsidiary of another company at this point.)

Here is the 1936 Walther brochure Ballistic Data chart. I am guessing these statistics are for the Model 2, with the longer 24 1/2" barrel. Regardless, your chart seems to me to well demonstrate the point.

I was prompted to consider the chart, and more closely examine certain bolt area wear on my two Model 2's trying to figure out what is causing that and wanted to post about that next.

Great info, thanks!

Dan

Walther 1936 Ballistic Chart.jpg
 
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