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Wouldn’t that be just the bee’s knees? SIG has some great engineering behind their product, but if that talent were to go to Walther like you mentioned, that would be a huge bump for them. Would be extremely interested to see any influence on future Walther designs by the new talent.
Not only design but skilled machinists, finishers, ... there is only so much of that skilled and experienced human capital around.
 

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This is a question for our German members who might be in a better position to answer.

How much of the demise is due to the policies of the German government versus how much of it is due to the business model not being sustainable? In other words making enough guns at a price enough people would pay so as to make a profit?

Like most things in life, the answer is probably somewhere in the middle but it's hard to really tell from the US.

Any insights would be appreciated.
 

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That's too bad as the Swiss reputation for quality and meticulous craftsmanship is second to none.
Not only design but skilled machinists, finishers, ... there is only so much of that skilled and experienced human capital around.

The quality of craftsmanship and attention to detail in some countries has a lot to do with how apprentices are trained and with the general work-culture in the countries concerned. In some cultures people identify very strongly with their work (“I am what I produce”) - in other cultures people go out to work because of the need to earn money to support their families (or lifestyle, hobbies, etc.). Of course these two aspects overlap to some extent, but you do tend to see a difference in manufactured goods and services from the “I am what I produce” cultures.

Balor
 

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The quality of craftsmanship and attention to detail in some countries has a lot to do with how apprentices are trained and with the general work-culture in the countries concerned. In some cultures people identify very strongly with their work (“I am what I produce”) - in other cultures people go out to work because of the need to earn money to support their families (or lifestyle, hobbies, etc.). Of course these two aspects overlap to some extent, but you do tend to see a difference in manufactured goods and services from the “I am what I produce” cultures.

Balor
I agree. It's also about treating those skilled and talented workers well, so they stay in the business and hone their craft.

It's about management having high standards and having a business model built around fewer, but higher quality items sold versus massive amounts of cheaper, lower-priced items.

More than one factor goes into it, but culture definitely plays a large role.
 

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There is no current production of SIG or SIG Sauer pistols in Switzerland - or at least not that I am aware of.
That's correct. The last Swiss SIG P210 models were made around 2005/2006. This was the last price list in Swiss Francs at that time:
Preisliste 2006.PNG
 

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Discussion Starter #26
This is a question for our German members who might be in a better position to answer.

How much of the demise is due to the policies of the German government versus how much of it is due to the business model not being sustainable? In other words making enough guns at a price enough people would pay so as to make a profit?

Like most things in life, the answer is probably somewhere in the middle but it's hard to really tell from the US.

Any insights would be appreciated.
The following sentences are written as German hunter, not as German competition shooter
Generally speaking, Sig Sauer pistols have a good reputation among the German hunters I know, but they are considered to be far too expensive as a gun to be used only for finishing shots.
As a gun for that purpose, German hunters can buy and mostly do buy cheaper pistols with the same functionality and performance.
 

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The SIG P210 was not tested “at 50 meters handheld”. It was tested clamped in a machine - and this is clearly stated on the test target.

Nonetheless, that does not detract from its remarkable accuracy.

There is no current production of SIG or SIG Sauer pistols in Switzerland - or at least not that I am aware of.

Balor
There is nothing on the target that states anything about being tested in a machine rest. The two “flyer” shots on my test target could be a good example of handheld misses. I would expect all 6 to be closer!
The fellow I bought the pistol from had a massive collection of 210’s and contacts at the factory. He was the one who told me in passing that the test was handheld. As a result, this is what I have believed. Where did you get your info that it was fired from a machine rest?
I sought out this collector based on the 210 article and test firing by two famous American gun writers, Dean Grennell & Wiley Clapp. They achieved 1.5” groupings at 25 meters with 4 of the six bullet loads/brands they used.
Irregardless and as you say, this is one accurate pistol and I find it easy to shoot well with its smooth action that in these writers words “must be experienced to understand” and its famous fantastic trigger. The rear sight is a good example of the American made by Bomar, click stop, target sight.
 

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The following sentences are written as German hunter, not as German competition shooter
Generally speaking, Sig Sauer pistols have a good reputation among the German hunters I know, but they are considered to be far too expensive as a gun to be used only for finishing shots.
As a gun for that purpose, German hunters can buy and mostly do buy cheaper pistols with the same functionality and performance.
Thanks for the response. What sort of pistols do German hunters typically carry?
 

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There is nothing on the target that states anything about being tested in a machine rest. The two “flyer” shots on my test target could be a good example of handheld misses. I would expect all 6 to be closer!
The fellow I bought the pistol from had a massive collection of 210’s and contacts at the factory. He was the one who told me in passing that the test was handheld. As a result, this is what I have believed. Where did you get your info that it was fired from a machine rest?

Post a picture of your test target. Not the bullet holes - just the text portion in the lower left corner of the sheet. You may (and probably should) obliterate the serial number, but the rest should be perfectly legible.

Balor
 

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Post a picture of your test target. Not the bullet holes - just the text portion in the lower left corner of the sheet. You may (and probably should) obliterate the serial number, but the rest should be perfectly legible.

Balor
What kind of grouping can one expect at 50 meters from one of these things?

I realize each gun is its own entity but are the older Swiss guns generally more accurate than the recent American reintroductions?

Just curious.
 

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Discussion Starter #31 (Edited)
Thanks for the response. What sort of pistols do German hunters typically carry?
Two of my hunting friends use a CZ pistol like me. Two other ones use a Walther or a H&K, the rest use S&W revolvers; but no one a Sig Sauer pistol.
I remember talking to other hunters in good company after a drive hunt two years ago about guns for the finishing shot. There was the unanimous opinion that Sig Sauer pistols are too expensive for that. You could also buy in Germany a S&W revolver for the same price.
Edited:
It is also interesting to note that none of my hunting friends uses a Glock pistol.
 

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Two of my hunting friends use a CZ pistol like me. Two other ones use a Walther or a H&K, the rest use S&W revolvers; but no one a Sig Sauer pistol.
I remember talking to other hunters in good company after a drive hunt two years ago about guns for the finishing shot. There was the unanimous opinion that Sig Sauer pistols are too expensive for that. You could also buy in Germany a S&W revolver for the same price..
Thanks GeMor for educating me.

For "field work" I also favor the Smith&Wesson revolver but there's certainly more than one way to get it done.
 

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That's correct. The last Swiss SIG P210 models were made around 2005/2006. This was the last price list in Swiss Francs at that time:

If the models on that list are indeed all Heavy Frame versions (as the heading of the list indicates), then you could have purchased one of those pistols brand new in 2005, used it for 15 years and then sold it without a loss - probably even with a slight gain.

That's an indication of the recognised quality of workmanship and precision of those pistols.

Balor
 

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What kind of grouping can one expect at 50 meters from one of these things?

I realize each gun is its own entity but are the older Swiss guns generally more accurate than the recent American reintroductions?

I have no first-hand knowledge of the American pistols, so I'm not in a position to comment on them.

The P210, as you probably already know, is the civilian designation for the Swiss Military P49 pistol. Production of the military pistols commenced in September 1949 and continued till the early 70's, although, to the best of my knowledge, most of the military contracts were fulfilled between 1950 and 1953. Thus many of the original military pistols have reached, or are very close to, their 70th birthday. In spite of this, a great many of them are still in use, including in competition.

In Switzerland there is a long-standing tradition of civilian versions of military firearms being used in competition and it was a requirement of the Swiss Military that the P49s should be useable without modification for 50 meter competitions. Each pistol was required to produce sub-50mm (2") groups at 50 meters, tested from a clamping machine rest and using standard Swiss ordnance munition. The munition in question, Pistolenpatrone 41, had a chamber pressure of 2600 bar and has only relatively recently been replaced by CIP-conform munition (maximum chamber pressure 2350 bar).

The military contract pistols fulfilled the above accuracy requirements, even with these very robust cartridges.

Balor
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Latest news from Sig Sauer Eckernförde, Germany

English translation by Google Translate of a German website, published today:

Original German website:

 

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Wow! Now it's getting nasty!

The bailiffs have impounded the production machinery - so it looks like the authorities had the feeling that someone was going to do a runner.

Balor
 

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On the test target topic.
I have 14 '70s thru '90s production dated German handguns in my collection, 8 came with the factory test targets (all shot bench rested by hand), four of these targets show sub-1" C to C results.
 

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A typical P210 made in Switzerland by SIG was test fired at a distance of 50 metres with the help of a machine.

View attachment 92910

The P210 models made in Germany by SIG Sauer however were test fired at 25 metres only.
Agreed. I don't own a P210.

Only P5s, P6s, P7s, P88Cs, and P220s. All fired by hand off the bench.
 
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We were discussing the test targets of SIG P49/P210, not those of SIG Sauer/Walther/H&K pistols. Modern Walthers (except the small-calibre match models) are test-fired at 15 or 10 meters, older Walthers, such as the P5, as well as the current SIG Sauer sport models at 25 meters (as opposed to 50 meters). The German manufacturers reveal neither the ammunition type nor the batch. The P49/P210, both the military and the private version, was tested with ordnance munition and the date of the batch is noted on the test target. The tests were done in a machine rest in order to have a measurable indication of the pistol's mechanical accuracy, as opposed to testing from a bench hand rest, where subjective influences can not be ruled out (for example, if the tester's mother-in-law had come to stay for the weekend).

I note that the member who introduced this off-topic theme has since made himself scarce and has not responded to the request to post his test target.

Balor
 
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