[BlackBirdCD]

Having seen a mess of articles on the somewhat diminutive .32 and .380ACP ammunition, I was wondering if any of you would care to share your thoughts on shot placement?

Assuming you get into a shooting encounter, where do you attempt to place your shots with your PPK/S? My preference would be "shoot to put htem down", which appears to be a trickier task with the smaller PPK/S, than say a 1911A1 in .45ACP.

Assume people are not wearing body armor, for the benefit of this discussion.

(I'm not currently a PPK/S owner, but I'm shopping them out now).

Thanks!

 

[uncut]

not any other place then with any other pistol......
controlled pair to the chest it is for me

 

[BlackBirdCD]

not any other place then with any other pistol......
controlled pair to the chest it is for me

Include a headshot?

 

[uncut]

Some may say yes .... some might say no...
the head shot in my book is reserved for when the attacker is not stoped with a controlled pair to the chest

 

[StngStr]

Include a headshot?

well, if you've already put 2 in the chest, you're better off putting the 3rd in the chest also.

3 in the chest is better than 2 in the chest and one missed headshot.

 

[Erich505]

I've worked in some capacity on over 150 handgun killings. Based on what I've seen successfully stop people, I carry ball ammo in my pocket gun and I aim for the heart/aorta. Gray's Anatomy is online and helpful.

http://www.bartleby.com/107/

The heart/aorta can be hit by aiming midline at armpit level. That's easy to do. Practice hitting targets that are 4" in diameter - I use dessert-sized paper plates.

Head shots are great, but look at Gray's to make sure you hit the right part.

 

[Erich505]

I wanted to go back and add that 1) shot placement and 2) adequate penetration are what the shootings I've seen have shown me is important for handguns to be effective. I think Blackbird and the rest of you all are very wise to be considering shot placement to be of such importance when using relatively anemic rounds.

 

[photohause]

1. Largest area of mass.
2. Shoot to kill

photo

 

[dwr461]

Over the past forteen years in my job I've been on too numerous shootings for me to count accurately. This type of question is strictly academic. The world in which I live have a surprising number of people in it who are shot in the buttocks. What does this mean? That they were running away at the time of the shooting. If you're planning on preventing injury to yourself or another by carrying a CCW than you've succeeded in stopping the encounter many times just by aiming at a scumbag. If you shoot them in the buttocks or back then you'regoing to be in big trouble. If they don't run away from an armed citizen but start to shoot back then most people regardless of training back away while shooting in order to get away from the shooter. I practice regularly but I suspect that if I hit the center of mass while being shot at I'd be doing pretty well. I have no illusion that I would be calm enough to casually pick out a 4" spot on the offender to hit effectively.

Dave

 

[David the Gnome]

If someone was actually shooting at me I think I would probably just empty the clip at their main body mass and get the heck out of there so I could call the Police.

 

[David the Gnome]

Bah.. I meant to say "magazine" not "clip". I'm trying to break myself of that habit. I wanted to go back and edit the post but I forgot this board doesn't give us the privilege of editing posts.

 

[MLB]

Glad to see that you pointed it out. I always feel like a "terminology Nazi" when I do.

 

[153]

I wanted to go back and add that 1) shot placement and 2) adequate penetration are what the shootings I've seen have shown me is important for handguns to be effective. I think Blackbird and the rest of you all are very wise to be considering shot placement to be of such importance when using relatively anemic rounds.

Every shooting I ever witnessed bore out the above conclusion. I have come to the conclusion that FMC ammo is best in these smaller pistols, not only for the penetration, but for reliablity as well.

 

[Deputy]

Shot placement...I see this on almost EVERY forum. Unfortunately, in real world situations where the bad guy isn't a bullseye or paper sulhouette and is actually firing live ammo BACK at you to try and kill you, proper shot placement becomes problematical at best. A better course of action than trying to get shots to the chest (which is often hidden behind cover/concealment) or to the head (almost impossible to do unless you are shooting the guy like a mafia hitman [in the head from behind]) is to just keep shooting at whatever part of the bad guy is visible. Doesn't matter if it's his foot or his calf or kneecap or forearm or pinky. Just keep hitting him wherever you can. All those hits DO have a negative effect on the bad guy, both mentally and physically, and eventually you will be able to be able to get a lethal hit on him. That's the big benefit of hi-cap handguns. When using a PPK or other pocket gun, you have a limited number of rounds to kill the bad guy with. So you have to make every shot count.

To the person who says empty the clip and run away...I suggest forget about pulling out the gun and JUST RUN AWAY if that option is open. The .32/.380 is hardly a "death ray" when it comes to killing people and is best used as a backup weapon. Furgetabout all the James Bond movies where the guy drops like a stone when he gets hit with a small caliber pistol. That is a rarity rather than being common.

"Shoot to stop"...not me. I shoot to KILL. Keep on shooting until the bad guy no longer poses ANY threat to you or anyone around you. All that lawyer crapola can be settled in court by YOUR lawyer. HE will tell you what NOT to say.

Dep



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[153]

Seems there are two discussions here, shot placement and tactics.

For shot placement, its all about where your rounds hit. I would speculte though that ANY hit is probably going to make all but the most insane attacker break off and depart.

Tactics will be different for a civilian than a LEO. Civilians should always be prepared to retreat whenever possible, since their only mission is self protection.

LEO's on duty or off will find themselves in totally different cirsumstances. They have an obligation to intervene whenever necessary, and that intervention may result firearms usage that would be inappropriate for a civilian. LEO's may also encounter former clients with a "bone to pick".

If I really thought I was going in harms way I would not carry a PP, PPK or PPK/S. I would have a full size pistol chambered in 9 m/m at the very least. These little Walther pistols while incredibly neat and beautiful things seem marginal at best when putting your life on the line. Yes, they can and do kill, but so does a screwdriver.

 

[BlackBirdCD]

My other pistol is a Kimber .45acp. If I were shooting someone with a full-size 1911A1, I would imagine that any hit is going to do significantly more damage than that from the .380 round from a Walther PPK/S.

Since I'll likely be carrying the smaller Walther more often than the Kimber, I may be more inclined to train to shoot a bit more on target.

 

[Deputy]

153: Yes, hits do tend to discourage "normal" attackers from continuing their aggression. Unfortunately, nowadays too many attackers are also hopped up on drugs or mentally deranged. That makes them crazed supermen in many instances. I don't think being an LEO means you are in totally different circumstances. I was one for 22 years and being on duty and off duty didn't really change my situation as far as when I would shoot. While LEOs have an obligation to "take action", that DOESN'T mean that they have the obligation to shoot it out or to even get directly involved in a situation. There are many instances where taking action for an LEO means reporting the situation on a radio or cellphone. No LEO is going to be suicidal and get involved in a shootout with multiple assailants simply because he has a responsibility to "take action".

As far as retreat...I think a better notion is to avoid the situation in the first place. Many times people put themselves in a bad situation and don't even realize they are doing so. Situational awareness is something EVERYONE should practice. Know your surroundings, know what is going on around you at all times, and keep a constant awareness of possible escape routes and plans of action. How many times have you seen families or individuals park their cars at shopping plazas far from overhead lights and observation by the public and then walk to and from their car completely oblivious to their surroundings? I see it all the time.

I live in an area where the Summer temps are in the high 90s and carrying and concealing a large caliber handgun is nearly impossible. That's why I bought the PPK. With one of those Pager Pal holsters I can carry it even wearing light clothing and it's 100% concealed.

Dep



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[153]

Deputy,

I don't have anywhere near the time in service you have as an LEO, but I do feel that an off duty LEO obligaton puts him/her in a different tactical realm than the CCW Civilian. I agree with what you said above, but will restate it in my own words.

I would never suggest that a LEO's obligation includes "suicide" runs at mulitple suspects or anything like that. But as an LEO your knowledge and expierence will color the way you see people and their behavior etc. and prehaps lead you into circumstances that might possibily degenerate into "deady force".

Civilian CCW is simply an unnecessary goverment sanction of our God-Given right to self defense of self and home. To meet the "self defense" criteria a Civilian MUST retreat until given no reasonable alternative, only then can one resort to deadly force. This does not affect any persons moral obligation to report crimes in progress etc.

Since I live in a Stadt that doesn't sanction our Constitutional Rights, I don't have a CCW. I won't apply for one because I am stubborn and feel I shouldn't have to petition the State or Local Authorities to excerise my Second Amendment rights. Having seen enough of the Criminal Justice System first hand, I obey the law and try to stay aware of my surroundings and those in them. If I think I am going somewhere where I might need a firearm -I don't go there! So far this plan has worked for me.

I envy your residence in NM, as it is a beautiful state - I have relatives there and the wife and I dream of moving there one day. Still where I am in Kalifornia it gets just as hot ... I'd recommend a Seecamp, Its a dream to carry and almost as effective as the .380....just don't try using it past ten feet or so!

To put this tread back on track, the .380 - while nothing I would care to be shot at with - seems marginal to me. I'm looking at the new Walther PPS!

 

[Deputy]

153: Just a few points... I don't know if you are aware of the Castle Doctrine, but it is being enacted in a LOT of states. Basically, it removes the need to retreat and puts the responsibility back on the criminal where it belongs. New Mexico almost got it enacted this year but it failed. It will be reintroduced next year though. You can read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine

I am licensed to CCW in my state and am glad of it. Silver City, NM is no paradise by any stretch. Between meth use, gangs, and illegal aliens, we get plenty of crime here. My wife and I both carry OC gas everywhere we go. And crime is EVERYWHERE. From the parking lot at Walmart to the local school parking lot. There really is no such thing as a "bad neighborhood" any more. It is the whole country now.

With the right ammo I think the PPK .32/.380 can be decent concealed carry weapon. It's no .45ACP, but it does fit in small places nicely. And a .45 in a gunsafe is no help WTSHTF. Especially in really hot weather where a large caliber handgun is just not practical for a number of reasons.

I looked at the PPS...definitely NOT my cup of tea. DAO and plastic frame mean it's just another Glock clone.

Dep



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[153]

Dep,

Castle doctrine was on my mind when I said the CCW Holder could use force when he exhausted all "reasonable" alternatives. One can only back up so far!

I appreciate and share your love of steel beauties like the PPK! Until recently I loathed "tupperware" pistols. But I broke down and purchased a P99 and have been having a lot of fun with it, its panning out to be a much better piece than I expected. Its different from the Glock - which is admirable for its indestructability - but I find little else to love it for.

Sorry to hear NM has so many of the problems we have in PRK!

Keep packin' and be safe!