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Discussion Starter #1
Is there a right and wrong if when extending gun toward target one extends arms completely - or bend arms slightly being sure wrists are locked?


My range officer and former pro shooter wants me to extend my arms completely, though he agrees I am shooting pretty well with second method above.


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Range officers are there to be safety observers and run the range. Even though he was a pro, why is he giving recommendations to your shooting technique? Did you ask for his advice? Why would he WANT you to change your shooting style if it is making you a accurate shooter?
 

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Range officers are famous for offering unsolicited advice and many of the so-called “pro shooters” are not as knowledgeable as they like to present. Massad Ayoob recommends a shooter be conversant with a variety of shooting techniques and use that which works best. Circumstances may dictate you transition from one style to another during an actual fight. I would take his advice over any range officer.
 

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Arms should be extended! That’s the proper way. How do I know? Well....I am an instructor 🙂

No one should ever have an arm bent. If you shoot “better” that way, it’s likely only because you haven’t learned to do it correctly.

Is having a bent arm safe? Sure. ROs are not supposed to instruct. But, when I see people shoot like this, it’s painful for my eyes.

Unless someone needs some sort of accommodation (I have a shooter with a shoulder injury), arms straight and wrists locked.
 

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Range officers are famous for offering unsolicited advice and many of the so-called “pro shooters” are not as knowledgeable as they like to present. Massad Ayoob recommends a shooter be conversant with a variety of shooting techniques and use that which works best. Circumstances may dictate you transition from one style to another during an actual fight. I would take his advice over any range officer.
That is true. But if you are target shooting at the range, and unless you purposely training different methods, that’s not likely what the shooter is intending.

Heck....I practice shooting laying down....
 

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I would assume that with arms bent there is more chance of a malfunction, such as in a limp wrist, if the arms go back during recoil.

JD
 

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Everyone has an opinion.
What are you training for target shooting competition hunting or self defense?
Determine purpose then train accordingly.
 

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Is there a right and wrong if when extending gun toward target one extends arms completely - or bend arms slightly being sure wrists are locked?


My range officer and former pro shooter wants me to extend my arms completely, though he agrees I am shooting pretty well with second method above.


Comments?
Neither ... a shooting range is only useful for getting to know your gun. After that, it's time to move on to tactical shooting. As I see it, my PPS is not a target pistol, as the range of the gun (as well as all other defensive handguns regardless of brand) is between eyeball to eyeball, and bar stool to bar stool, thus my focus is being able to shoot from whatever position of opportunity will present itself. be it strong hand, or weak...just my 2 cents...
 

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Jeff Cooper and Ross Seyfried both shot with arms bent. Anyone here going to allege they didn’t know what they were doing?
Different techniques have different advantages. It is best to be acquainted with as many as possible.
I, too, am an instructor; having taught police officers for years. On occasion I have seen a shooter who appeared to be doing everything wrong; yet he was consistently hitting the target. At those times, I think it best to leave the shooter alone. I am only interested in hits. How the shooter does it is of secondary concern.
 

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Jeff Cooper and Ross Seyfried both shot with arms bent. Anyone here going to allege they didn’t know what they were doing?
Different techniques have different advantages. It is best to be acquainted with as many as possible.
I, too, am an instructor; having taught police officers for years. On occasion I have seen a shooter who appeared to be doing everything wrong; yet he was consistently hitting the target. At those times, I think it best to leave the shooter alone. I am only interested in hits. How the shooter does it is of secondary concern.
I would actually agree with that. Problem is, I don’t see too many shooters doing things wrong or less than optimized who can shoot well.

When I work with a shooter I always ask....what’s your goal?

If the guy is shooting with arms bent, among other things, and can’t hit plates at 15ft, we are going to start at square one. If a guy is shooting less than optimized and can hit 2” groups at 100ft, then I would say “you want to shoot tighter groups?” 🙂

Shooting is really nothing more than controlling physics. Bent arms make it harder.
 

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The stiff arm technique is usually referred to as the Isosceles Method, and the slightly bent weak arm (the strong hand arm can be rigid or slightly bent) is the Weaver Method, with the weak hand pulling and supporting the shooting hand just under the triggerguard. Use whichever one works for you.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Jerry Miculek. one of the greatest shooters..shoots with Isoceles stance and slightly bent elbows with wrists locked....check out his videos
 

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Insisting on one type of shooting style for a beginner may not be the best approach.
Once you have the fundamentals then you can learn different styles.
What about hitting cm using Jeff Cooper modern method at 50 yds very doable.
Or snub nose 20 yd again very do able.
Trick is you have to first learn the fundamentals.
Handgun hunting you really only have one shot, so you need to be able to draw and fire cold shot and make the hit. Unless you set up a tree stand, then more like bench shooting.
Probably not using an iscocles competition stance in any of those applications.
Beginner need to learn how to make the shot then build up skills and styles.
 

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Jerry Miculek. one of the greatest shooters..shoots with Isoceles stance and slightly bent elbows with wrists locked....check out his videos
You are exactly right.....saw that myself. There are many reasons why the text book instruction will not and can not work for every individual including the human anatomy.
 

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You are exactly right.....saw that myself. There are many reasons why the text book instruction will not and can not work for every individual including the human anatomy.
Yes, but Jerry is pretty clear on Weaver vs Isosceles. He makes the point that when shooting slow, many techniques can work well. Where speed is a goal, or the ability to engage multiple targets quickly, some techniques or stances have advantages.

Jeff Cooper advanced the art of pistol craft no doubt. It has continued to evolve though and that will most likely continue.

There are lots of good videos out there. Watching Vogel,Miculek,Leathom,... you can see differences in technique but some very common themes.

Much of what they are doing is about recoil control and the ability to move and engage multiple targets QUICKLY. If that is our goal we would be wise to study what they do and why.

The art of how to best do that has evolved since Coopers heyday (blasphemy!).

If our goal is tiny groups at 25 or 50 yards, perhaps even one handed, maybe the Vogel method of gripping the pistol is not the only way to get that done???

You can hold the gun in an unconventional manner, stand any way you like and get good hits if you can hold the gun steady, align the sights and squeeze the trigger without moving the gun.

You will probably hit a ceiling though in your ability to shoot fast and fairly accurately or your ability to move and or engage multiple targets.
 
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