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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Dear all,


I got my first pistol (PPQ Q4 Tac) several months ago and so far I’m liking it a lot. It feels great in the hand, it’s very featurefull, and the trigger is great. I am now in the market for a second gun, which I want to get by June at the latest. The pistol would be used for home defense & at the shooting range, and since there are two household members, there should be at least a gun for everyone. My budget is ~$1000. I am asking this here to receive the wisdom of the community, which I believe would be much-greater than my own.


The choice parameters I have considered are:


1. Threaded barrel (high importance) – extra 0.5-0.7 inches barrel length at minimal weight/size cost & fun-can-friendly. Ideally this would ship with the gun so it’s fitted at the factory and, if serialized, would match the frame.


2. Polygonal rifling (low importance) – from what I gather it’s more durable, it’s easier to clean, and is just better all-around with properly-sized bullets. If I’m not mistaken, Walther, H&K, and Glock all use polygonal rifling.


3. Metal frame (high importance) – this is a biggie and the main reason I would prefer an alternative to the PPQ. First, I find metal-framed pistols to generally be much more-beautiful. This pistol won’t be a carry piece, so I am not much concerned about the extra the weight. I’ve found my PPQ’s frame too soft for comfort and I’m just not trusting it to be… built to last. Maybe I’m being paranoid, but I can scratch it with just my nails (Mohs hardness: 2-2.5). How can the plastic where the slide rails sit hold up over time? Won’t the frame magazine receiver (the hole you stick the magazine in) loosen its grip of the steel magazine over time? I know that tightness isn’t what’s holding the magazine in place, but isn’t this what prevents the mag whiggling around?


This wouldn’t be an issue if I could just buy them online (like Sig P320) but it’s the serialized part on the PPQ.


4. RDS-ready (high importance). I have astigmatism that I don’t notice much in everyday life, but it’s been pretty bad when I’m aiming with my PPQ’s sights setup. I know RDS themselves present issues to astigmatic users, but these would be more-manageable for me.


5. Trigger (high importance) – I’m still a new shooter, so a nice trigger is necessary for me to shoot accurately. If the trigger is bad enough, I can just drop in an aftermarket piece.


6. Ergonomics (medium importance) – I don’t see how a metal frame could ever match the perfect fit the PPQ makes in my hand. Space for four fingers under the trigger would be nice.


7. Manufacturer warranty (medium importance) – “lifetime” gives me more comfort than “1-year”. Walther, H&K, SIG offer lifetime warranties.


8. Size/caliber/capacity (medium importance) – 9x19mm, compact size preferable to full-size, standard capacity for the size (15+ rounds).


9. Appearance (low importance) – It’s not a carry piece and I’d like it to look nice and stay looking nice forever.


The pistols I’ve considered:


PPQ Q4 Tac. Just trust the plastic and get another one.


PPQ Q4 Tac SF (doesn’t exist). If this existed, I’d just buy it, regardless of how bad it breaks my budget.


PPQ Q5 Match SF: Gorgeous. It’s over-budget and I prefer compact size. I can’t get over the “SF” on the slide, which I’ll always associate with “San Francisco”, Nancy Pelosi, and similar things to come out of that place. I’d also need to paint the trigger dark red or black, and pay an extra ~$300 for a threaded barrel (if one exists), so it’s going to end up at ~2x my budget.


Sig P320 RX: No P320 variant checks all the boxes. Need to get barrel separately. No polygonal rifling option. Needs an aftermarket trigger.


Sig P229 RX: Haven’t handled it. I don’t know much about it. Conventional rifling. Need to get TB separately.


Beretta M9A3: Haven’t handled it. Full-sized, it’s not optics-ready, there don’t appear to be tall sights for it either, conventional rifling. 3-year warranty. Trigger reported as good.


CZ 75 P-01 Omega Urban Grey – Haven’t handled it. Pros: TB, reported nice trigger, right size, decent ergo, semi-optics ready (cz-custom), 5-yr warranty. Cons: Conventional rifling & I don’t like FDE (Urban Grey is FDE & Grey combo). Neutral: 7075 T6 Aluminum frame… I have no experience at all with aluminum outside of aluminum wrap and phones, and in the case of phones it dents and scratches badly with me after 2 years of handling. I hope this is a stronger alloy/temper/metallurgy magic than an iPhone.


---


So I’m left with several good but imperfect choices, and I don’t have the ability to reach a well-informed decision. I would welcome any advise on other choices to consider. Maybe I’m missing something or paying too much attention to unimportant things… like plastic frames.


Any advise would be helpful.


Thanks.
 

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Dear all,


I got my first pistol (PPQ Q4 Tac) several months ago and so far I’m liking it a lot. It feels great in the hand, it’s very featurefull, and the trigger is great. I am now in the market for a second gun, which I want to get by June at the latest. The pistol would be used for home defense & at the shooting range, and since there are two household members, there should be at least a gun for everyone. My budget is ~$1000. I am asking this here to receive the wisdom of the community, which I believe would be much-greater than my own.


The choice parameters I have considered are:


1. Threaded barrel (high importance) – extra 0.5-0.7 inches barrel length at minimal weight/size cost & fun-can-friendly. Ideally this would ship with the gun so it’s fitted at the factory and, if serialized, would match the frame.


2. Polygonal rifling (low importance) – from what I gather it’s more durable, it’s easier to clean, and is just better all-around with properly-sized bullets. If I’m not mistaken, Walther, H&K, and Glock all use polygonal rifling.


3. Metal frame (high importance) – this is a biggie and the main reason I would prefer an alternative to the PPQ. First, I find metal-framed pistols to generally be much more-beautiful. This pistol won’t be a carry piece, so I am not much concerned about the extra the weight. I’ve found my PPQ’s frame too soft for comfort and I’m just not trusting it to be… built to last. Maybe I’m being paranoid, but I can scratch it with just my nails (Mohs hardness: 2-2.5). How can the plastic where the slide rails sit hold up over time? Won’t the frame magazine receiver (the hole you stick the magazine in) loosen its grip of the steel magazine over time? I know that tightness isn’t what’s holding the magazine in place, but isn’t this what prevents the mag whiggling around?


This wouldn’t be an issue if I could just buy them online (like Sig P320) but it’s the serialized part on the PPQ.


4. RDS-ready (high importance). I have astigmatism that I don’t notice much in everyday life, but it’s been pretty bad when I’m aiming with my PPQ’s sights setup. I know RDS themselves present issues to astigmatic users, but these would be more-manageable for me.


5. Trigger (high importance) – I’m still a new shooter, so a nice trigger is necessary for me to shoot accurately. If the trigger is bad enough, I can just drop in an aftermarket piece.


6. Ergonomics (medium importance) – I don’t see how a metal frame could ever match the perfect fit the PPQ makes in my hand. Space for four fingers under the trigger would be nice.


7. Manufacturer warranty (medium importance) – “lifetime” gives me more comfort than “1-year”. Walther, H&K, SIG offer lifetime warranties.


8. Size/caliber/capacity (medium importance) – 9x19mm, compact size preferable to full-size, standard capacity for the size (15+ rounds).


9. Appearance (low importance) – It’s not a carry piece and I’d like it to look nice and stay looking nice forever.


The pistols I’ve considered:


PPQ Q4 Tac. Just trust the plastic and get another one.


PPQ Q4 Tac SF (doesn’t exist). If this existed, I’d just buy it, regardless of how bad it breaks my budget.


PPQ Q5 Match SF: Gorgeous. It’s over-budget and I prefer compact size. I can’t get over the “SF” on the slide, which I’ll always associate with “San Francisco”, Nancy Pelosi, and similar things to come out of that place. I’d also need to paint the trigger dark red or black, and pay an extra ~$300 for a threaded barrel (if one exists), so it’s going to end up at ~2x my budget.


Sig P320 RX: No P320 variant checks all the boxes. Need to get barrel separately. No polygonal rifling option. Needs an aftermarket trigger.


Sig P229 RX: Haven’t handled it. I don’t know much about it. Conventional rifling. Need to get TB separately.


Beretta M9A3: Haven’t handled it. Full-sized, it’s not optics-ready, there don’t appear to be tall sights for it either, conventional rifling. 3-year warranty. Trigger reported as good.


CZ 75 P-01 Omega Urban Grey – Haven’t handled it. Pros: TB, reported nice trigger, right size, decent ergo, semi-optics ready (cz-custom), 5-yr warranty. Cons: Conventional rifling & I don’t like FDE (Urban Grey is FDE & Grey combo). Neutral: 7075 T6 Aluminum frame… I have no experience at all with aluminum outside of aluminum wrap and phones, and in the case of phones it dents and scratches badly with me after 2 years of handling. I hope this is a stronger alloy/temper/metallurgy magic than an iPhone.


---


So I’m left with several good but imperfect choices, and I don’t have the ability to reach a well-informed decision. I would welcome any advise on other choices to consider. Maybe I’m missing something or paying too much attention to unimportant things… like plastic frames.


Any advise would be helpful.


Thanks.
Overall, the FN 509 tactical meets most of your special needs.
https://fnamerica.com/products/pistols/fn-509-tactical-blk/


Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk
 

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First of all, don't worry about polymer frame durability. Sure, sharp objects can scratch it, but when it comes to impact like slide movement, the shock is transferred and spread throughout the fame. Metal inserts for the rail are sufficient, there are plenty of polymer guns with round counts well into the tens of thousands. And when they fail, it's often the metal parts anyway...

Second, CZ would be an excellent place to look, but your red dot is going to require custom milling on most models. Not out of the realm of possibility given how affordable the guns themselves are- take a look at the suppressor ready variants of the P-07 and P-01.

Similar to the CZs and also requiring milling for a dot, there's the Kriss Sphinx. Very nice pistol, pricy but within your range, at least before the cost of milling...

The FN is also a great suggestion. They did optics-ready right on that one.

There's also always Glock. You can make one of their pistols into basically whatever you want.
 

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First choice would be a HK USP Compact but since you want a metal frame the Sig P229.

Jim D
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks for the comments.

CZ: I can't seem to find the CZ P-01 in question locally... at all. Only found it online in Bud's & Impact Guns, both of which show the threaded Urban Grey picture but describe their item as a the base P-01 Omega model. The threaded SP-01 is available, (full-sized, steel, decocker), so I may end up going with that. Since I've never had a gun with a decocker or an external safety, I kind of liked the Omega because it would let me experiment about which I'd feel better with. Maybe I'll wait a while to see if anyone stocks the P-01 I want.


FN: The 509, yeah I considered it when I was picking my first gun but I went with the PPQ. FN doesn't appear to have a written warranty, but an implied one, and that's just not a position I feel comfortable to be put in.


Polymer: The p-07 & the FN 509 are both polymer guns. If I was going that route I'd get another PPQ since, to be honest, I love my PPQ a lot. The only issues I've had with it (brass to face, gritty trigger, squeaky trigger) resolved themselves with the break-in. The remaining issue (I can't see the sights well) is my problem for not wanting to wear my prescription... and (mostly) correctable with an RDS or a different rear sight setup.


My main concern with the polymer is... political. I know it will last me for several decades, but I suspect it won't last as long as a metal frame. It wouldn't be an issue if I felt I could just get more guns down the road, but given the rapidly-shifting regulatory climate and underlying demographics of my state, I don't know if that will be an option in 10 years, nevermind 20. I'm still pretty young and have (if nothing goes wrong) ~5 decades ahead of me. I'd hate to have started enjoying something like shooting, done it for most of my life, and then suddenly find myself unable to do so for no good reason.


Sig:


I will be trying out a 229 at the range this week. The Legion is a bit too pricey for me right now, but I gather the non-Legion can be "Legionized" later if I really wanted to do so.


Anyone have any experience with the P-320? Can you compare it to the PPQ?


Beretta APX: I just realized the Beretta APX also has replaceable frames like the P320. I’ve only shot 10 rounds through one of those at the range and it didn’t shoot as nice as the PPQ.
 

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You may have a hard time finding any striker polymer gun you like as much as the PPQ. You almost certainly won't like the 320's trigger as much.

You won't go wrong with any of the CZs. Or any guns mentioned, really. It's an easy market to work with now, except when too many good choices is the problem. Oh, and if you don't have experience with SAO or DA/SA guns, then you're right about an Omega being a good idea.
 

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I think the metal CZ is worth looking at. I love the PPQ with the small or medium backstrap feel and the CZ also fits my hand well. They are well made and very accurate!

I would add that the sights on the base 75 are not exactly great. For the money you mention you might be able to get a 75 SA and have Cajun Gun or CZ Custom add on good sights.

Good luck!!
 

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If your thinking maybe polymer, one other gun feels as good to me as the PPQ and my trigger out of the box was smooth as silk. It probably fits me better than the PPQ and has been 110% reliable. The H&K VP9 SK. I got some 12 rnd mags with the pinky extension and it feels wonderful. Both my VP's are gray frame/black slide but the bronze/black looks awesome. And the SK will shoot the standard size 15 round magazines. I like HK sights better than Walther sights.

The reason for mentioning the USP Compact earlier is it's a great gun also that shoots anything you feed it. But I like the DA/SA with manual safety and decocker. Then you can carry it DA/SA safety on, DA/SA safety off, or cocked & locked where you then have a light crisp SA trigger pull. Then when you want to, simply decock it with the manual safety pushing down. Not many guns that you can carry in so many modes. And last, I've got thousands of rounds through mine without a break-in and zero malfunctions.

BTW, I have a FN 509 LE and a Sig P320 and out of the two I like the FN far better but neither will match a H&K or a Walther. And about polymer frames, It's my opinion that they will far outlast an aluminum framed gun. Like I mentioned, my USP has had thousands of rounds through it and there is no visible wear at all on the frame.

Jim D
SE Texas
 

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My budget is ~$1000. I am asking this here to receive the wisdom of the community, which I believe would be much-greater than my own.

<snip>

So I’m left with several good but imperfect choices, and I don’t have the ability to reach a well-informed decision. I would welcome any advise on other choices to consider. Maybe I’m missing something or paying too much attention to unimportant things… like plastic frames.
Your lists of 'wants' indicates Champaign taste, but you're working with a craft beer budget. Thus, you're going to have to make budget-driven tradeoffs. Nighthawk Custom 1911's, Dan Wesson Elite Series Furies, and Springfield 1911 TRP's are right out. What do all of these high-priced, optics-ready options have in common? That's right -- a metal frame.

If you'll settle for polymer, you get a lot of gun for the money. Since you seem to have liked the Q5 Match SF, have you looked squarely at the polymer-framed Q5 Match? It's in-budget. It doesn't have the SF you seem to strongly dislike. Oh, and if you're looking at one, you might see what you think about the Canik TP9SFX, as it's a LOT of gun for the money and one can now be had that includes the red dot (a Vortex optic) while STILL coming in under your price point. I mention this because I looked at the Q5 Match and the Canik TP9SFX side by side, same day … and the Canik went home with me because I felt it had a superior trigger.

I read your post where you seem to imply that you believe a metal frame will outlast polymer. To that, I say: "only if you're regularly working in exceptionally cold temperatures where cold-to-hot changes from shooting might result in stress fractures … and only if you're super-heating the gun to the point of polymer melt". In those conditions, a metal firearm is superior. But I doubt you'll be in Antarctica or putting 1000 rounds downrange as fast as you can reload mags into the pistol, in which case, consider: polymer doesn't rust, doesn't pit due to natural body oils and fingerprints, and DOES. NOT. COST. AS. MUCH.

So -- my advice is simple:
  • If you're prone to extreme conditions for the gun, buy a pistol with a metal frame
  • If not, then buy a pistol with a polymer frame
  • If you're hell bent on a pistol with a metal frame because it's just what you want (rather than bogus thoughts of it lasting longer), then buy that
  • And if you want a pistol that entails no tradeoffs, then keep saving and buy a custom pistol that checks all of your boxes.
 

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There are some good suggestions so far. I think you're going to have a limited selection of steel frame guns with RMR cut outs from the factory.

The Sig P229 is a great gun but going from a PPQ that's striker fire to double/single action might not be the best for you.

Sig makes a single action only model but I've never shot one, so I can't speak to it.

Don't worry about whether or not it comes with a threaded barrel if you can get the gun for under your budget, they aren't expensive to add on later.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 

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Q5 match if steel is important. I think it's also KOOL looking. :)
Same holster (probably), same magazines, same manual of arms, best stock trigger outside of 1911.

IMO steel is no longer superior to polymer. the chemistry of polymers and tenifer is so advanced, a 1000 years form now the'll be digging up PPQ's and shooting them while 1911's will be little bits of rust. Wth polymer, you save a lot of weight, can expose to elements on extended basis withh confidence it will continue to work, and melt or sand down gouges that you cant on steel.

If you want a thing of beauty that's all metal, get a 1911 with bobtail grip, like Dan Wesson ECP.

PS How about SF = Sure Fire! or S**t (hit) fan gun, your designated bug out gun? It's mine. :)
 

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I think getting another PPQ of your liking makes a lot of sense. Then when Walther comes out with the steel frame version you want you can sell it and get that. IMO longevity worries about poly frame pistols are way overblown. If you are still considering a CZ I would strongly recommend getting a steel frame one and yes that P01 is one ugly pistol in that color and the trigger out of the box probably won't be near as good as your PPQ and the reset will be nowhere near as short if that is a concern.
 
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I am a real fan of DA/SA pistols. The DA gives very good deterrence to UDs without the necessity of adding a safety disengage to the manual of arms, which is important to a person who is not constantly training in tactical environments. And the SA gives very good follow-up shot potential. Now we com to striker vs hammer. I come down on the hammer because it gives the option of going to SA with a simple motion (cocking the hammer) instead of half-racking the slide, which may produce a jam.

I own a P99 AS Compact, a PPQ Q4Tac, and PPQ Q5, as well as a PPS M2 and a PPK/S, so I am very familiar with Walther pistols, and I have no problem allowing my PPQ Q4 Tac to be my bedside pistol, but my ultimate choice and current bedside pistol is a Sphinx SDP Compact with some modifications. The modifications are as follows: Some spring modifications provided by Modern Weapon Systems to reduce the DA and SA pulls to about 9 DA and 4.25 SA. I have done my own trigger work on my other Walther pistols to get them all within about 10% of the above values. The Sphinx required very little work to achieve these values. Since Sphinx is a thinly traded name, it took me a while to find a shop to do the tactical work I desired on the gun, namely, design a dovetail mount for a Leupold DeltaPro RDS and design and install a tall front sight and modify the Leupold Deltapro rear sight with tritium dots to cosite the RDS. On the front end, I have installed a Streamlight TLR-2 HG. I consider this pistol to be the best home defense pistol for me.

A little history. I had a P226 for years and was very happy with it, but when I added a light/laser to the front, the balance was too front-heavy for me. The balance of the P99C AS was good with a light, but I could not mill the slide for a RDS because of the location of the decocker. The PPQ Q4 Tac solved that problem but did not allow me the simple half-cock-to full-cock action of a 1911.

For a balanced view, my PPQ Q4 shots just as well as my Sphinx as far as accuracy is concerned. I am a 4 MOA shooter with either. The Q4 required no spring mods, it was tuned to my hand and motion out of the box. I have polished the trigger slightly on both pistols just to smooth them out a bit. Both were really nice right out of the box, but I like to tinker. The Q4 came ready for RDS, the Sphinx required a custom dovetail. All in, the cost of the Q4 with the RDS and light is about $600 less than the price of the Sphinx equipped the same way.

My latest project is a CZ P07. Same treatment as the Sphinx. I call it my "budget Sphinx" because, with some trigger work, it shoots at about 4.5 MOA. The only difference in trigger is that I can detect a little trigger bar flex during the pull.
 

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For home defense purposes I have always stuck to the same pistol so mags and holsters are shared. Another Q4, additional mags and a holster you are under budget.



If you go with a CZ get the standard trigger and install a Cajun Gun Works defensive carry package. The triggers are great. I have a P09 and 97B that have been cajun-ized. Love them both.




Mike
 

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Can't go wrong w/CZ's. They are releasing optic mounting versions of the P-07, 09, 10f, 10c & 10s. I too have had a P-09 modified by CGW (including the slide milled for a DeltaPoint Pro). It's an incredible firearm.
 

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I knew there were optic ready 10-series pistols coming. I wasn't aware of optic cut 07s and 09s being a thing? If so, good on CZ. Those were already a top choice for DA/SA guns.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Tl;dr: 1 or 2 PPQs + CZs for next year.


I went to the range a few days ago and had the opportunity to shoot a SIG P226 Elite and a CZ SP-01. I knew steel was going to be heavier, but those two were significantly heavier than my PPQ. I don't know whether the range had modified them or not, but the SA triggers on both felt only a bit lighter than my PPQ and to my newbie self, not noticeably better otherwise. I also learned that I can’t shoot straight at all with DA trigger weights. Or maybe I learned I need to visit the gym. At any rate, I guess this inability also solves my problem with the unavailable Omegas – should I ever get a hammer-fired gun, manual safety it is.


I have read all the comments carefully and am surprised at how many people are recommending CZs. I will probably end up getting a CZ when I can refill my fun budget. For now however, I’ve decided to stick with one or two PPQs – one more Q4 Tac in 9mm, and maybe one PPQ 22lr which would help keep down costs over time (I’d be saving 15c / round at the cost of lead exposure). The two PPQs together are only slightly over budget.


The main factors behind my decision were:


1) Polymer. I’ve grown less-concerned about the polymer given comments from both here and elsewhere attesting to its durability, given a fresh review of DuPont’s materials on Zytel (I’m assuming the PPQ’s polymer is zytel-based), and given a week of handling my Q4 roughly to see if the plastic nicks (it hasn’t, but my furniture has). Related to this decision, it now seems likely that WA will define “large-capacity magazines” at a less-unreasonable 15-rounds instead of 10, so viable 9mm handguns packages will likely be available after the congressional session is over (I will revisit the durability issue with more information next year).


2) Familiarity & training. The hammer-fired metal frames would have introduced new complexity that I would rather postpone until after I become a decent shot with my PPQ. I also like that the PPQ 22lr is available, so I could practice more-affordably with the “same” handgun.


3) Features. Only the PPQ is fully-featured, saving $ down the road.


Next year the choice will be between a couple of DeltaPoint Pros & TLR-8s and a nice CZ!
 
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