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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited by Moderator)
Just bought this, it's in the mail to me. (up here we can mail guns).
Walther PPK .32 ACP with holster and 2 mags as was brought back by a WW2 war vet.
This PPK has the eagle over N markings and a serial ending in K that designates it as WW2 1st Variation Wehrmacht. (I think)
It has some wear on the slide as you would expect.





Got a couple of questions. Neither of the two mags has a finger rest. Is that normal for a war issue PPK?

Anybody seen a holster like this?




Thanks for any info.
 

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Don't know about the PPK question. It looks like a nice one. We will need the serial number because it is necessary to determine the date manufacture. I think your holster may not be for the PPK it looks a little big. All the German holsters I have seen made for the PPK have Walther PPK stamped inside the over flap in blue ink. The holster may have originally had a PP or something equivalent in it at one time earlier in it's history.
 

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Hello in Canada:)
Looks like a fine PPK.
We need the serial number, and the K has nothing to do with wehrmacht...
Eagle/N is wartime production, i can not see Waa359 or any markings behind the trigger, maybee it is a "commercial" but we need the serial...
Does the serial stands on both slide and frame?
Yes on the magazine question i think - flat mags in wartime is most common...

The holster looks wery interesting, and maybee it is for the gun, but i cant find som mush info about theese type of holsters...

So, picture of the side of the pistol that shows us the serial...:)
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Serial number is 302113K. The gun is in the mail to me and I'll get some detailed pics when it arrives. It's coming from the other coast, so it may be a few days.
 

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302113K would make it a 1940 production. Probably purchase by part of the Officer's requirement, if it is a commercial PPK. They were required to purchase their own sidearm when commission.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
302113K would make it a 1940 production. Probably purchase by part of the Officer's requirement, if it is a commercial PPK. They were required to purchase their own sidearm when commission.
Perfect, without getting into a rant about some of the strange rules we have about handguns up here, I had a vested interest in this being pre 1946.
 

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Serial number is 302113K. The gun is in the mail to me and I'll get some detailed pics when it arrives. It's coming from the other coast, so it may be a few days.

I have great news for you. When you get your new PPK, you will find the serial number on the slide. That is because you fortunately have purchased one of the "lost" RSHA PPKs that had been provided to Einsatzgruppe C. This gun is listed in the procurement listing that was according to the documentation in the national archives, almost 1000 guns that had been distributed through the Grenzpolizei School in Pretzsch. But no accounting of this distribution was made and forwarded to the RSHA arsenal. In 1943 as request was made of Einsatzgruppe C to account for the guns distributed to their men. A small list of several dozen guns (not including this one) were all that could be accounted for. Most of these PPK serial numbes and names are included in the RSHA/SS Pistols Red Book by Marschall and Gortz and its subsequent reprint as the Black Book by Stepan.

Here is the header of the documentation from the National Archives document showing a portion of the original listing of the pistols that was included in the inquiry in 1943.Your pistol is listed in the second image, in the second group from the bottom.



Here is the section of the letter listing your pistol in a specific range of weapons provided to that Einsatzgruppe.


Congratulations, you have an extraordinarily rare pistol.
 

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Gentlemen, you guys are an incredible wealth of information. If that gun could speak, I'm sure it would have a sad story.
I just bought it to be a relatively inexpensive shooter that I could pass to my grandson, now got to rethink that idea.
 

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Gentlemen, you guys are an incredible wealth of information. If that gun could speak, I'm sure it would have a sad story.
I just bought it to be a relatively inexpensive shooter that I could pass to my grandson, now got to rethink that idea.
You're welcome. If you would, could you provide us with an image of the other side of the pistol showing the serial numbers on the frame and the slide? Also, you should check the two magazine to determine if they are numbered to the gun. The serial number should be stamped on the rear flat side of each magazine towards the bottom, and include the respective number 1 or 2 to denote each magazine. Thank you for this courtesy.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
The gun should be in my hands next week, I will be sure to get some detailed pics to you. Thanks again for your help with this.

You're welcome. If you would, could you provide us with an image of the other side of the pistol showing the serial numbers on the frame and the slide? Also, you should check the two magazine to determine if they are numbered to the gun. The serial number should be stamped on the rear flat side of each magazine towards the bottom, and include the respective number 1 or 2 to denote each magazine. Thank you for this courtesy.
 

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nbanders,
Good find. As wotka says, this is a rare find. Two others are listed in my book as being found with a photo of #296 896 K complete with the serial numbered magazine on page #181. The complete document listing more than one thousand serial numbers can be seen on page # 180. Also, the accompanying letter sent to the Border Police School at Pretsch where the Einsatzgruppe C were trained complete with a translation are included on pages #178 and #179 of the Black Book.

A lot of people are now carrying dog-eared copies of the book to gun shows in hopes of finding one of the two thousand guns listed therein.
According to letters which I receive, many have been found that way in the unknowing hands of exhibitors at low prices.
 

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The following is a post I prepared for GermanDaggers.com and posted in April of 2010 (linked here Serial Number List of PPKs to the Einsatzgruppen of the RSHA - GermanDaggers.com) elaborating on the historical significance of the data presented in the archival records. It also corrects my identification statement to nbanders in my above post, in that his pistol was definitely procurred for one of the four Einsatzgruppen that spread terror and murder in the Soviet Union, but that we do not know for which specific Gruppe the pistol was destined.

"On page 7 of the Görtz and Marschall book "SS Walther PP/PPK 1939-1944", the authors write that on roll T-175, roll number 248 where the information contained in the book was found, there is a complete register of the PPKs issued to the personnel of Einsatzgruppe C that operated out of the Ukraine. The authors were incorrect in the analysis of this information. Let us examine the facts.

In preparation for the anticipated invasion of the Soviet Union scheduled for June 22,1941, SS General Heydrich formed four units of security forces to follow respective Army Groups into combat. The Einsatzgruppe was a concept that had been developed by the Reich security forces during the taking of Czechoslovakia, Austria and the invasion of Poland. The RSHA was prepared to use them again against Jews, Gypsies, Communist Commisars and partisans during Operation Barbarossa.

Four Einsatzgruppen were planned and designated with the letters A-D. The four large units were composed of 600 to 990 individuals brought together from various sources: Waffen SS, Order Police, SD, Gestapo, Kripo, motorcylists, adminstrators and office workers. The larger units were in turn divided into smaller commando units designated Einsatzkommando or Sonderkommandos. The various service groups were brought together in May 1941 at the Border Police School (Grenzpolizei Schule) at Pretzsch on the Elbe River. After training was finished and the almost 3000 men were paraded before senior SS officers, the units commenced operations the day after the Invasion of the Soviet Union on June 23, 1941.

So lets look at the documetation not printed in the Red Book that is attached here. The letter from the RSHA is to the Einsatzgruppe C and is dated May 29, 1943. Almost two years after the commencement of Einsatzgruppen operations in the Soviet Union. The letter is addressed to Einsatzgruppe C and informs the EG that in July of 1941, the PPKs listed on the attached page were sent to the Border Police School at Pretzsch for distribution to the Einsatzkommandos for service in the East. But apparently no one bothered to inventory the listed pistols (997 in all) and inform the RSHA armory of their disposition. The Einsatzgruppe C was requested to determine the disposition of the weapons they received.

Notice the receipt stamp on the letter to Einsatzgruppe C. Apparently no one in the RSHA Arsenal was informed that after by mid 1942,the Einsatzgruppen were reformed into static security agencies in the respective areas of operation in the Soviet Union. So the inquiry was received by the Befehlshaber der Sicherheitspolizei und SD fur die Ukraine (BdS Ukraine). And the BdS Ukraine finally got around to answering the inquiry about the missing PPKs almost a year later in April 1944 and produced the list of some 69 PPKs of which they had record that are shown on the lists in the following thread "Additional Documented RSHA PPK Numbers, With Issue Names".


But the report only accounted for 6% of the pistols sent to Pretzsch for service in the East. From the analysis of the composition of the Einsatzgruppen, we can see that there was no need for 997 PPKs for Einsatzgruppe C. Its total composition was less than 900 men. And of this number, perhaps only a quarter or third were RSHA men who would have received RSHA equipment. The PPKs certainly would not have been distributed to the members of the Waffen SS or Order Police who would have arrived with their own weapons and equipment, nor would famale auxilliaries, office personnel or translators have needed or been entitled to such weapons.

So it is obvious the shipment of these PPKs to Pretzsch was intended for distribution to all the Einsatzkommandos of the four Einsatzgruppen. Based on need, the supply of PPKs would have supplied those in the four Einsatzgruppen. But the shipment arrived perhaps two weeks to a month after the units left to pursue their duties in the East. The guns couldn't have been distributed in Pretsch, so the shipment had to have been arranged to follow the four security groups for delivery. Some of those that reached EG C were included in their report a year later. And these are confined to certain definite serial number ranges of the Pretzsch list. The remaining guns on that list for the most part are unknown. They have disappeared, most probably in the east. Perhaps they remain in a storage warehouse in the Ukraine in perfect condition. Or perhaps they were destroyed in the massive conflict that marked the Red Army's march to Berlin.

 

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Discussion Starter #17
This is very interesting. The fact that it was in a Belgian holster kind of makes sense for a Canadian bring back, because after D day Canadian troops (my father among them) spread into Holland and area. How one of these notorious PPKs ended up in their hands is a mystery.
 

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This is very interesting. The fact that it was in a Belgian holster kind of makes sense for a Canadian bring back, because after D day Canadian troops (my father among them) spread into Holland and area. How one of these notorious PPKs ended up in their hands is a mystery.
Not really a mystery. The RSHA man to whom your pistol was issued either was transfered from the EG (Einsatzgruppe) unit where he received his pistol while the units were still active and his weapon followed him. Or, he remained with the EG unit after it was transformed into a stationary unit (like the unit to which the letter was addressed) and was transfered back to the West as those stationary EG units were dissolved as the Soviet forces advanced in their relentless drive towards Germany.
 

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Additional Documented RSHA PPK Numbers, With Issue Names

Elsewhere in the National Archives I located additional correspondence concerning the "missing" PPKs. On April 2, 1944, a letter was sent from the static Einsatzgruppe C of the Sicherheitspolizei in Lemberg, detailing those PPKs that had been issued about which they had information. This cover letter and four subsequent pages of PPK listings is the letter mentioned at the end of the seventh paragraph in post #16. This small list of several dozen guns were all that could be accounted for of the almost 1000 issued to the Einsatzgruppen. Most of these PPK serial numbers and names are included in the data of the Gortz and Marschall book "SS Walther PP/PPK 1939-1944" but if you go through the numbers listed you will find a dozen or so new numbers with issue names that can be added to your copy of the book. Or just print off the pages and put them in the Red Book.

Nbanders, you will notice that some of the pistol owners are indicated serving in different Stapo (Statspolizei) postings (Dienststelle). This is indication of the different situations I theorized that could have happened that would have resulted in your PPK being captured by a Canadian soldiers in their zone of operations.

The research documentation below I uncovered in our National Archives using sources identified by Joachim Gortz and published in his book with Dieter Marschall.
 

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