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Discussion Starter #22
not what i would call drastic, but yes i did something to it. i just took it apart and didn't put the mag safety spring back in upon re-assembly (part #24, the double spring located near the trigger)......chambered a round and then dropped the mag, it fired every time. i tested it upright, upside down, canted left, canted right...after 6 or 7 test fires, i was satisfied that it would shoot without a magazine.

any ideas on the extractor or ejection problems?
Oh we have ideas......lots of ideas. For one when you remove the mag safety foot and spring your magazine will lock fine, your pistol will fire but the magazine is loose and flops about. This could impact feed. Removal of the safety has been done 100's of times over the years and most people put them back in. I do however remove the inner spring. The device works fine with the larger spring and that makes mag insertion easier, less wear on the mag release, etc.

I don't know if it is the primer, the lead composition, the powder or what but similar "on the box" velocity and energy" data does not match real world shooting. I linked a site called by the inch recently which recorded velocity and the P22 is one of the pistols used. This measured velocity and energy of a number of rounds out of 2" to 24" barrels. I think I put the formula for calculating energy in there somewhere. All I know is RGBs kick like mini mags and both work nearly 100%. I rarely get a dud RGB contrary to other folks. I do get some in all ammo. I even have been buying some ammo that should be pretty hot.....and isn't out of the short barrel. So I don't know the answer to why this or that. As Searcher posted...different ammo is what it is....unfortunately we aren't able to purchase prezackly what we would choose these days but it is getting better.

When I get my new parts I'm thinking I will see how many coils need to be removed to make some of this weaker ammo work 100%. I cut too many off the last challenge. Worked fine for getting down there where some pretty wimpy rounds will cycle and regular hv ammo stills works fine. I haven't been able to figure out how to put two clipped coils back on the spring. I'm also thinking that a shorter spring will make the pistol jump more so everything is a trade off. I expect real target pistols are tuned for certain ammo. Crete's big ole wobbly contraption sure seems to wobble a lot......but the man can still shoot somehow. Back to your issues later.....gotta go help with the womenz stuff.....translated...plant flowers, mow lawn, get out the leaf blower, neaten up the 3.5 acres. :( Shoot later when the womenz are distracted eating those little cakes and stuff. M1911
 

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i replaced the larger mag safety spring, and tested it with 4 types of ammo:

Winchester plated HP 36gr:
30 rounds, overall decent ejection, but a few were short and at different angles, it failed to chamber a round a few times, but no stovepipes or FTE, about 80% functionality......much better than the out of the box performance before the mods, and a whole new pistol compared to when the mag safety spring was out.

Remington 36gr HP "golden bullet":
30 rounds, good ejection, 100% functionality

CCI Velocitor 40gr HP:
20 rounds, good ejection, 100% functionality, recoil felt nice and solid, i felt like i was sending something much more substantial downrange....this is my favorite ammo so far

CCI Stinger 32gr HP:
20 rounds, good ejection, 100% functionality, recoil was a little more noticeable than the winchester, and RGB, but didn't feel as good as the velocitor.




I learned that the VQ ejector works fine. Ammo does make a difference (too bad i have about 1500 rounds of the winchester.....anyone want to trade?), and i learned that the mag safety spring definitely affects how the pistol feeds....unfortunately......

I'm going to order a bunch of RGB and Velocitor, and then call it good enough for now....thanks for all the help
 

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I haven't tried the Velocitor yet, I missed out the other day when wal mart here had it. I didn't feel like dragging my sick 4 year old mini-me through the store so ole dad could get some supplies for his gun, as my son refers to it. ;)

I'm also going to peen my stock extractor ever so slightly. I'm still getting self-head shots from my newly emptied brass. Me no likey.


One other thing, though this isn't the proper thread. My P22 is a BC code, and looked like it had barely been used when I traded for it. Is there a way to cause it to have a little less effort needed to drop a mag?

(I haven't read the P22 bible...yet, if there is, I'll do the legwork to find that info. Thanks in advance :D)
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Removing the middle spring from the safety foot is the first step. I then lightly polish the top and bottom of the expanded tabs on the mags. Do not shorten them, just polish so that there is less damage to the bottom of the polymer safety foot from a rough edge and a smoother surface to unlock from the mag lock. 600 grit or 1000 grit emery is what you want to use. Just polish, don't remove material that would make the tabs shorter.

Very careful when peening the Walther new extractor. it can be peened but it require a lot of light strikes otherwise the tip will break off. I have not tried to peen a VQ extractor. I know exactly what should be done with the extractors to correct ejection direction but have no idea how to manufacture extractors. Guess it takes some type of CAD machining contraption. The tighter the tolerance the better the ejection direction. However, the rim cannot bind between the breech face and extractor when sliding into position when released from the magazine. The rim slides in at an angle before squaring up on the face of the breech block.

One day I'm going to give a little study to what could be done to replicate the Walther made S&W M&P .22 breech face which is perfect for extraction and ejection. M1911
 

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I agree,

Not the he needs anyone to agree, but I just went through it myself for the first time. I broke a extractor on a BD. it was easy :)
I thought I was Peening light, but I was wrong. The VQ replacement works fine with good ammo.
I removed the inner spring as recommended, and the mags drop fine.

Just my .2
 

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Discussion Starter #28
I agree,

Not the he needs anyone to agree, but I just went through it myself for the first time. I broke a extractor on a BD. it was easy :)
I thought I was Peening light, but I was wrong. The VQ replacement works fine with good ammo.
I removed the inner spring as recommended, and the mags drop fine.

Just my .2
My experience also. Less pressure on the mags and release and yet the disconnect safety works 100%. Sure is a tricky little ledge to rest the spring on. Walther.....what were you thinking? Extractors, I broke one too way back and I knew they had to be tapped lightly. I was looking at one I didn't spend much time on as pictured in the, well whatever that thread is I'm working on regarding the M&P nose piece for a P22 and the tip of that extractor needs a little cleaning up. It works fine though. I was successful in peening it rearward just a bit. I have to keep trying this as both my 1DogFish models have gotten away from me....Son has one, Sister the other.....guns too. I haven't tried peening the VQ but it could stand a little tightening up also.....unless we can come up with a M&P nose piece that is easily installed. M1911
 

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myron is back

Hello again. This is to let you know my P22Q is working fine after using your assistance. I will wait to do anything to the extractor. During some of our visits you said something about repairing a laptop lid problem.(wire from screen to main unit). Could you send me the posts that you told about how you did it. I have an older laptop with the same problem. I can't afford to have it repaired. Thanks for all of your help. Have a "Good'n"! ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #31 (Edited)


Leroy pm'd me and asked would I whack up his extractor. Sure I said, send it down. I haven't whacked on it yet but it set me to thinking about something now that I had a new extractor from a recent P22 and the fact that Costa got all my regular new ones and some other extra stuff I had laying around. So, I'm thinking this would be a good time to document a few things. I didn't want to go to the trouble of tearing any pistols apart but I wanted to take a better look at these extractors before I put my microscope together.

I also got tired of trying to hold a round on the breech face while holding the extractor and point and shoot Canon camera. So, I super glued a round onto the face of an old breech block S&W had been kind enough to send me for free in the past for experimenting. Above you can see how I shoved the round up against the top of the recess and centered it. The real way to do this would be to chamber a round, stick some super glue on the breech face, close the slide and add some weight through the muzzle to fasten on the bullet as it would sit in the chamber. But, that was too much trouble, besides, there is really no way of knowing exactly where a spent case might sit on the breech face just prior to hitting the ejector. So, this is the way I'm doing this. :cool: The case measures 0.224" and is a Winchester Super x.



Next I needed a way to attach extractors in their proper location. I did this by inserting the retaining pin through the extractor and then seating it in the recess provided for it on the right side of the breech block. A rubber band completed the fastening process. A double check of everything indicated that the extractor was squarely seated. Note, the roll pin for the extractor is larger on the bottom end. This pinches it into the much harder extractor without enlarging the hole in the zinc slide. At least that is my take on it. Perhaps it goes the other way so it can't fall out the bottom. Walther doesn't provide us with this type of detail. So, I just have to make it up..as I go. Probably should take a closer look at this one day.



Above is an original, stock extractor showing the large gap that seems to be the culprit regarding spent cases flying everywhere but where you want them to go. Much has been written about reducing the gap between the face of the extractor and the front of the rim. Tests have shown that a lesser gap does indeed correct ejection direction to a consistent direction.



But what is this? This is leroy's new style extractor fitted to the breech block. This is the newer style breech block by the way. There is still a huge gap. If you read back in my assessment thread on my BC P22Q model you will read that while the pistol looked great it was the worse ejecting P22 I had fired in a while. Hot cases once again hit me in the face. So, now this makes me wonder if Walther has shortened the previously tighter tolerance extractor or if there is that much variation in which mold makes which extractor? I will hammer on this tip later and break it....er,,, I mean peen it and see if I can close that gap a bit.

As you can see both extractors are all the way against the side of the case. They are not going to move further inward unless the case moves off center. Hopefully by then the spent case is on its way out of the pistol.

I'll take some pictures of a VQ extractor installed the same way and see what it looks like. Other folks have my 1DogFish extractors so I can't picture them at present. The rim above measures 0.042" in thickness which is on the thicker side of .22 rims I've measured. Other rounds run from 0.038" up to 0.042". But rim thicknesses vary even in a 50 round box. The gap between the new extractor and the front of the rim is 0.032". And, as you can see is almost as wide as the original extractor. No wonder my new pistol was hitting me in the face. I guess this is what MGMike is talking about when suggesting that you can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. I any event I will picture what peening can do to reduce the gap, how a VQ sits and talk to the machinist down the street about all of this including the breech block mod on a genuine milling machine. M1911



Peening is slowly reducing the gap. I need a smaller hammer with the new anvil I am using and one has to wonder how strong peened metal is. The steel in the extractor is very hard and brittle when it comes to peening so I have to go slow. Many light taps....then right when you get to the quitting point the problem is to stop.....and not give it one more whack.



Which brings us to the VQ extractor. A very nice extractor but they also did not reduce the gap enough. I realize a round slides up the face of the breech block at a slight angle and you don't want the rim to be pinched even though the extractor is spring loaded....however, I've run a few 10,000 rounds through some much tighter tolerance extractors with no issues at all which brings me to something that is long over due......just how well do those VQ real steel extractors peen??? One way to find out.



The VQ extractor peens quite nicely and seems to be much more malleable. I actually hit it pretty hard a few times and nothing broke. The circular undercut actually seems to help the tip give as it is peened and knocked inward a bit. I will work on this some more but right now it is 12:30 pm and I need to go to work before the boss fires me.........uh,.....wait....I am the boss. Good, I just fired myself. Think I will go do some shooting.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
:( No good news from the machinist. Machining is cost prohibitive.....so is the machinery. Need a surface grinder with a magnetic chuck for the breech block and some other $20K machine for this and that. Back to the old files and bricks I guess.....M1911
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Slo motion of stock VQ extractor Let's see if the peened one works any better. Will make a video soon. Also of how leroy's performs before shipping back. The Walther one is much harder to peen without braking the tip as the metal is brittle and there is less supporting steel under the tip. The original is easier to peen. Might do that one to. Should document ejection direction with that one in my pistol too....stock vs peened. M1911

 

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Discussion Starter #34 (Edited)
OK, some videos. RGB and various extractors, 10 rounds. Canon SX280HS slo mo. Can't figure out how to work GoProHero 3+ in slo mo....:mad::( M1911



An original, square cut extractor with the large gap.



Ejection of the same extractor after a minor amount of peening to reduce the distance from the extractor tip to the front of the cartridge rim.



Pay attention. Don't do this. Can you see what is wrong before I even fire the pistol. First time I've ever done this. Glad I have an O ring in there. No damage but I always wondered what would happen if a pistol was fired like this with no buffer.



Video of Leroy's stock, new style extractor with the large gap. It isn't performing much better than the original square cut. Will post videos of his extractor function tomorrow after peening it and a video of the whacked on VQ extractor I've been messing with. Got to get Leroy's back in the mail to him. I know he is going through withdrawals.



Viedo of Leroy's peened new style extractor. If you want your extractor to cause the case to be strongly ejected to the right, tighten the tolerance between the extractor tip and face of the rim. I have had some so tight in the past that the case was thrown 30' out to the right. After shooting in a booth and having spent cases bounce everywhere due to their velocity I tamed them down a bit. The cases above are being thrown 6' to 8'. How far they are thrown isn't the issue. If you compare the stock videos you will see cases thrown back at my head, up, left, forward, on my hand, etc. All of that is what you do not want. If your cases routinely eject 16" to the right....that is great. My LCP throws them straight up, on top of my head and slightly to the left. :( Not much in favor of that, it is 100% reliable or has been for 4,000 rounds but I haven't figured out or really attempted to assess what is going on there. But I bet the extractor plays a big role in it. Remember on the P22 the extractor does not extract the spent case, blow back gasses take care of that but it is obvious the extractor plays a large part in ejection direction.


I've noticed some of these videos take a while to start rolling. PB must be busy.
 

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Don't know if it's me or what but I cannot view any of your photos. PB is telling me you have moved the pics
mace
 

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DING DING DING.....searcher451 had the answer...
but it seems to me that would have been the default
thank you agaon
 

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I'm new posting, but have been lurking for a while. I picked up a QD just before Thanksgiving. Horrible time cycling federal automatch, somewhat better with rgb. Lots of FTE, and it would shove the next round under the last casing which was still partly in the chamber. It would have to have the mag dropped to remove the bind, then the spent casing would just fall out. New and spent rounds would drop easily into and out of the chamber though.

I cleaned up the trigger bar ears first. Mine were chamfered from the factory, not rounded, and already causing noticable wear after 150 rounds. I also cleaned up the hammer edge where it presses on the block. This helped a lot with eliminating slide friction and the bad FTEs while firing.

I could not get it to manually extract a round either though. After some testing and tearing apart, it was apparent that it was a barrel block issue. The slot was not cut deep enough to ever allow the extractor to catch the edge of a round. I only really found this after ordering the volquartsen extractor, and it didn't help. The shell had to come partly out of the chamber before it could be grabbed.

I sent this info to Walther, expecting them to tell me it was "normal". They just responded with a return form and call tag for FedEx though. I sent it to them, and tracked it to make sure it got there, which it did in 2 days. 3 days after that (5 days total) I got an email confirming they received it. Two days after that, I got a phone call. The rather terse man said they opened it, and that it needed $150 of a new trigger bar, extractor, and hammer before they would look at it for the extraction issue, even though I included the original extractor in the case as well. Since I bought the gun on special for $219 a little over a month ago, I used as much politeness as I could muster to tell them to just ship it back to me, which then cost $37, via credit card during that phone call or it would not be returned I was told. Needless to say my opinion of Walther and their "legendary lifetime warranty" is less than stellar.

Anyway, got it back this week, untouched from Walther, and looked closer. I tried stoning the original extractor face so the slot didn't push it out as quickly. This didn't help. Playing with just the barrel and loose extractor I couldn't see how it would possibly grab the case, there was just too much material to let the extractor grab the lip, i.e. the material on the side of the chamber was thicker than the case lip itself. This meant to me that filling the channel was in order. I didn't have a file that thin, so I bust out the Dremel. I found a stack of 5 cutting discs that almost equaled the slot width, then ran these on an old file to level them all out smooth and flat at the edge. Then I carefully filled the channel to where the extractor would catch a case. This took several minute passes, followed by cleaning and test fitting. Then I took 3 thicker discs and barely cleaned up the marks the 5 discs left, then a wire wheel, then a brass wheel until it was smooth and shiny. Tests with the volquartsen extractor and gun reassembled show it now extracts really well, with still much more material on the chamber wall than pics I've seen if original P22s.

Long story, sorry, but the general good is I now have a P22QD that will cycle most rounds, and will actually extract them, and send them somewhere besides down my shirt and in my hair. I've shot only 50 rounds of RGB and the problematic automatch, with only two failures to fully go into battery. It's like 15 out though, so that could be just my hands or a cold weapon. I'm calling it a win compared to the 3 or 4 FTE problems per mag before the mods.
 

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Discussion Starter #39 (Edited)
In my recent assessment of the new P22 QD I mention that the wall of the chamber at the extractor cut is thicker than in the past. That could certainly hold the extractor out and away from the small rim on a .22. I didn't have a close look at it and presently have my QD completely disassembled until I get time to finish my trigger job. Before that it was 100% but I never tried extracting a live round. In the past I have found that a stuck case will not be readily extracted by the P22 extractor unless I press down on the front of the arm. Just the way it is designed. In a recent thread regarding manual extraction issues I thought this might have been the issue....the extractor cut being too thick for the design of the extractor. You solved it the way I would have approached it although I probably would have found something I could wrap 330 grit emery over that fit the slot just right even if it were a stack of feeler gauge blades. Then neatly polished off a bit of the bottom of the cut. Don't go too thin though like Walther did in '99 or the metal will break off.

Walther could have had a look at the extractor issue and determined what the problem was, repaired it and left the rest of the pistol alone. The trigger bar has nothing to do with it. Your extraction and feed issues could be extractor and or magazine issues. The extractor does not play a part in extracting a spent case when firing. It does play a part in how the spent case ejects on this particular pistol. The one thing that is not 100% on my QD is ejection direction. I'll soon fix that though. I usually find that these rushed factory smiths are not up to my standards anyway. And they certainly don't have any equipment to do some of the mods....because, there isn't any commercially available. I'm still puzzling over a new way to stone my primary hammer hooks on the new set up. Something easy and precise. I'm on to an idea.....just haven't gotten to it yet. The gutted target P22 is back together and working nicely. I put a new hammer spring in it to get the trigger and firing pin strikes up to snuff. 2.5 lb trigger now with the new spring. A little moly powder will drop that a bit. 1917



This is what my trigger bar ears look like when I lay them back.....and 10's of thousands of rounds later there will be only a very little witness mark on the slide. If I have to ever send mine in I will tell them to not touch em.
 

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I expected them to look at the barrel, but they wouldn't do anything with the trigger bar ears and hammer smoothed. Told me it had to be stock for them to look at anything on the pistol, so basically no warranty then I guess. Mine shot way right out of the box. Rear sight are noticeably left of center to get it on target, and the right side of the barrel sleeve and barrel hole in the slide are noticeably wearing more than the left, making me think there's something with the barrel, along with the extractor notch problem. It is what it is though, as long as I can make it a reasonably accurate and reliable fun plinker, I'll be happy. I'm not expecting buckmark kind of longevity or accuracy.

I just wanted to make sure that someone else having the same issues I was had an idea for a fix. I also wanted to say not to bother with sending it to Walther for said issues. Sad too, I really wanted a P99 or PPQ for my next purchase, I love how they feel in the hand. Not sure I want to spend that much for that kind of support though. Maybe better off getting a TP9 instead and spending the extra money on parts and accessories.

I just got some o rings today as well, lubed one up and popped it on the recoil spring assembly. I'm interested to see how it does with that addition. Super simple to undo if I don't like it or it causes I'll effects at least.
 
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