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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok...hear goes.....

While this may not apply to most of us....or maybe it does, because we don’t actually know each other in person, but I have come to the conclusion that most shooters are not only terrible but actually dangerous.

OMG...where do I begin..

In general, I see so much poor gun handling and certainly gun handling that is way less optimal. Further more, I see people at the range giving advice to others who have no business doing so.

I taught two class this past week and in both cases someone with a Ruger LCP and another dude with a Bodyguard out shot everyone else....including a guy with a Sig Legion and a red dot. Why? Because most people suck.

Give me an hour with someone who has never fired a gun before and they will shoot better than 90% of the shooters I see.
 

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I guess you mean most shooters that you have witnessed. I do not see much of what you report at my LGS range. There are some less than proficient shooters there at times. And there are some shooters who give advice they are not qualified to provide. However, I would say that the "some" shooter group is a very small percentage of the total number of shooters I have witnessed at the range. So while I can agree that the types you describe exist I cannot agree that the word "most" applies.
 

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I got news for you, some ROs stink too.

We had a new range open in the Plano area a few years ago, the RO shot HIMSELF the first day they were open for business.

It's not just around firearms, there's some incompetence on ALL levels, of EVERYTHING.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
No...I am gonna say...MOST stink.

I have gotten to the point where unless I actually see someone shoot in person, I don’t believe anything to they say.

Go to a public range.....they stink.

A club? A little better.

It’s so bad that I tell new shooters to not watch people at the range because you will only get bad habits.

You know where else I see terrible shooting techniques? Also every gun review video. Seriously....most are using improper grip techniques.

Look...ANYONE can hit a bullseye. You can hold a gun upside down with one hand, all that needs to happen is that at the point of the break, the sights just need to be aligned. But that’s not what I am talking about. People can make holes in paper, but doing it over and over again and quickly requires good technique. And you don’t see proper form with most shooters.


Certainly....there are many shooters who should be optimizing their shooting.


Case in point....

I had a husband and wife yesterday. Pretty common. She had very little experience. The husband, retired military. Had a nice colt commander.

His form? Not good. Hers? Perfect.

She outshot him during the qualification.

At least he finally said “I guess I need to do things differently” and was proud of his wife.

I see this sort of stuff all the time. But many people don’t want to take advice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I got news for you, some ROs stink too.

We had a new range open in the Plano area a few years ago, the RO shot HIMSELF the first day they were open for business.

It's not just around firearms, there's some incompetence on ALL levels, of EVERYTHING.
Anyone can be an RO. Take a class....bam....you are an RO.

I saw an RO shoot himself this summer and he is a very proficient shooter who made a mistake. Shot his toe holster ing.
 

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I guess it depends. Our range officers are great. No one is perfect and who would expect that from shooters. That's why the range is there. I know many gun owners that never ever go to a range to shoot at all. I've encouraged some to but they still haven't. I'm sure they'd probably suck too. Oh well.
 

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I got swept so many times at the public range at which I used to volunteer as a RSO that I invested in a ballistic clipboard. I also went to a local police supply store to be measured/fitted for soft body armor, and they wouldn't sell it to me since I wasn't a LEO -- despite having no posted policy on the matter. Seriously, in 800 hours of volunteer RSO time, I've had more loaded firearms pointed at me by people than most LEOs will ever experience in a lifetime.

Note:
I say 'most' LEOs because a pair of RSO's who volunteered with me at the range were LEOs, so they experienced the same thing. Both offered to take me to the store for fitment and vouch for me, but I was so angry I declined in order to vote with my wallet - which is why I took my own measurements and ordered online. It was completely messed up that said police supply store would sell me a firearm (which can be used to kill someone) but wouldn't sell me body armor (which can only be used to defend myself -- and cannot readily be used to cause lethal harm to another in any way of which I am aware).
 

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I was a RO for a large pistol competition club in the Chicago area for many years, and some of the seasoned competitors had questionable gun handling.

One time, as a competitor, I was policing my brass downrange after the match when I failed to see a new shooter come in and unboxed their pistol. As I picked up a piece of brass in front of their position I looked up to see a gun pointed at me - and a "click!". Needless to say the RO got a good lecture.

I tend to avoid public ranges if at all possible. The last time I was at a public (uncontrolled) rifle range, changing targets with the entire line, I was greeted on my way back to the bench by shooters handing their rifles - to which I quickly "instructed" them on proper safety procedures when people are downrange. They had no clue even though I had made the range "Safe" before heading downrange.

Admittedly, only a small percentage of firearm owners are what you would consider proficient with their firearm.
 

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Anyone can be an RO. Take a class....bam....you are an RO.

I saw an RO shoot himself this summer and he is a very proficient shooter who made a mistake. Shot his toe holster ing.

Well, ROs have a few additional hurdles to clear vs a firearm owner.
The ROs have received additional training in safe firearm handling, and have been "checked out" by the range/club that employs them.


Plus, as an RO, you've chosen to police others, so expect being held to a higher standard. Just like LEOs.
 

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This is definitely a very interesting thread but the findings are not surprising. Look at how people are driving, while everybody considers himself a great driver, their accident record and lack of general discipline will proof them wrong.

Why should the average person muster the discipline and have the intelligence to learn the basics of pistol craft? It takes serious study and is an ongoing process. Why do top shooters always have a coach and a strict training plan? Shooting proficiency is an acquired skill and as such is recessive if not constantly practiced and having the basics reinforced. The casual and occasional shooter is mostly a gun owner that has not taken the time to learn much beyond being able to know the muzzle from the grips and jerking the trigger.

I always marvel at internet reports of two inch groups, offhand, at 25 yards with some pocket pistol when I rarely ever witness any great shooting for accuracy here. a well placed two inch group would be a perfect score in ISSF / UIT shooting matches and the U.S. fared rather poorly in the olympic events in the last decade.
 

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I always marvel at internet reports of two inch groups, offhand, at 25 yards with some pocket pistol when I rarely ever witness any great shooting for accuracy here. a well placed two inch group would be a perfect score in ISSF / UIT shooting matches and the U.S. fared rather poorly in the olympic events in the last decade.
Thanks for the laugh, today. I needed that!

Such groups are unicorns. Once in a blue moon you find a shooter who can do that. I shoot a lot compared to many gun owners… and I freely admit I can't do that. Why? My shooting mostly entails defensive training/reinforcement … wherein there's such a thing as 'good enough'. People who shoot one ragged hole in paper taking slow/close aim between shots just aren't training for typical self defense situations. But hey, at least they ARE shooting/practicing, which is more than can be said for many gun owners.
 
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Funny, but the OPs comments are a given for me after 40 years of shooting across public, private, and government ranges. Some of the worst offenders IMHO have been LEOs. I've said it before but at the last 3 public ranges I have been a member of when LEOs come to shoot many of us regulars find time for a snack, drink, or to browse because the only time we see them is right before quals with their box (singular) of ammo. The other warning for me is this (and yes, like all rules it has exceptions) the more "tactical" the clothing the bigger risk the person is on the range.
 

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Some of the worst offenders IMHO have been LEOs.
Sadly, I have observed this, as well. We had one LEO who was CC'ing on our range (and printing VERY badly) -- which was a policy violation. I politely pointed out the policy, asked him to remove/unload the CC'd firearm, and the LEO pulled out his badge and said he was allowed to CC while off duty because of it.

Rather than argue, I just got one of the LEO RSO's and had him deal with the guy. And yes, he DID comply, but it took another LEO telling him exactly the same things I did … to get him to do it. Had he not been printing, no one would have been the wiser; because it was OBVIOUS this guy was carrying due to the printing, it had to be dealt with.

This sort of 'rules don't apply to me' thinking … coupled with carrying a firearm as part of the job but only practicing when needed to qualify …. makes for a combination that results in some scary LEOs on the range. Now, to be fair, just like there are non-LEOs who are gun aficionados (and who practice a lot), the LEO community has these, too. (The LEO RSO's on the range were perfect examples.) And much like other informed firearm owners, these people are a joy to be around.
 
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Sadly, I have observed this, as well. We had one LEO who was CC'ing on our range (and printing VERY badly) -- which was a policy violation. I politely pointed out the policy, asked him to remove/unload the firearm, and the LEO pulled out his badge and said he was allowed to carry because of it.

Rather than argue, I just got one of the LEO RSO's and had them deal with it. (And yes, he DID comply, but it took another LEO telling him exactly the same thing I did … to get him to do it.)

Must not have served because anyone who has knows you never, ever, talk back to the RSO. :eek:
 

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Well, I may be one of the shooters that suck. I need bright light to see the target. My indoor range delivers moderate lighting. I don’t shoot 2-5 inch spreads but I hit the the target such that the perp will not get up which I suspect is the objective. I’ll never win ( or enter ) a shooting contest. But blowing paper targets with 40 yo son on a monthly basis is priceless.
 

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Ok...hear goes.........

Give me an hour with someone who has never fired a gun before and they will shoot better than 90% of the shooters I see.
Be careful.. I wouldn’t want you to get hurt falling off of your soap box.. seriously I’m joking.. But you mention people’s form being wrong? Why because they don’t use an Isosceles stance and instead use a Weaver stance? Because they don’t use a thumb forward grip? There are more then one stance or grip. Personally I’m not comfortable with a thumb forward grip and I ... (oh no.. should I out myself?) prefer placing the index finger of my support hand on the front of the trigger guard. Does that mean my form sucks and I have no right owning or using a firearm?

As far as safety goes that’s a whole other subject. I’m at the range once a week and am constantly looking around. Especially when the yahoo next to has his firearm laying in his tray pointed in my direction instead of down range.
 

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Well, I may be one of the shooters that suck. I need bright light to see the target. My indoor range delivers moderate lighting. I don’t shoot 2-5 inch spreads but I hit the the target such that the perp will not get up which I suspect is the objective. I’ll never win ( or enter ) a shooting contest. But blowing paper targets with 40 yo son on a monthly basis is priceless.
You have a lot of company. Enjoy your shooting and being with your son....that is so much more important than punching holes in a target.
 
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