Walther Forums banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I know where a PP Super Cal 9X18 is for sale in Calif. What exact caliber in terms I can understand is it? I dont know if the gun is "chambered" to fit another caliber, but this is what it says on the left slide of the gun.
"Super Cal 9X18" . also says made in W. Germany
Please any help or advice.
Seller says Serial # 12825 and may have been imported in the ealy 70's.
Since I live in Kalif, dont know if I can get it but only through PPT and not a gunstore purchase.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
9mm Ultra, or 9x18 Police, has essential the cartridge dimensions as a 9x19mm Luger round, only it is 1mm shorter and has the rim dimensions of a .380acp. The bullet weight is around that of a .380acp, around 100gr. Do not confuse 9x18Ultra with 9x18 Makarov. The two calibers are significantly different.

The PP Super is a great pistol if you like the Walther PP-series pistols. I am a big fan, personally, and I own a couple PP Supers. The ballistics of the 9mm Ultra are superior to both .380 acp and 9mm Makarov. However, 9x18mm Ultra ammo is not easy to obtain. I would not recommend it, but you can shoot .380acp ammo with PP Super. Again, I do not recommend shooting anything but the designated caliber ammo in any firearm.

I hope this helps.

Sent from my LG-E739 using Tapatalk 2
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,150 Posts
Doc, how does that work, to the degree that it does work? Does the round headspace on the extractor?

I've handled pistols in this caliber, but have shied away for the ammo issue.

Can the round be reloaded on 9mm or .380 dies?
Moon
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
9mm Ultra, or 9x18 Police, has essential the cartridge dimensions as a 9x19mm Luger round, only it is 1mm shorter and has the rim dimensions of a .380acp. The bullet weight is around that of a .380acp, around 100gr. Do not confuse 9x18Ultra with 9x18 Makarov. The two calibers are significantly different.

The PP Super is a great pistol if you like the Walther PP-series pistols. I am a big fan, personally, and I own a couple PP Supers. The ballistics of the 9mm Ultra are superior to both .380 acp and 9mm Makarov. However, 9x18mm Ultra ammo is not easy to obtain. I would not recommend it, but you can shoot .380acp ammo with PP Super. Again, I do not recommend shooting anything but the designated caliber ammo in any firearm.

I hope this helps.

Sent from my LG-E739 using Tapatalk 2
This has cleared me up a bit. What I am wondering, Can I use .380acp that I would buy at a gunshow or store in the commerial box? Is 9mm Makarov different than 9mm luger? If the 9mm is different then I presume I can shoot regular .380acp without having any gunsmithing work?
If I need to alter anything I may not get it due to scarcity of the ammo(pmm Makarov). Please let me know thanx.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,227 Posts
If the 9mm is different then I presume I can shoot regular .380acp without having any gunsmithing work?.
Dinkydau, it can never be recommended to fire ANY cartridge aside from that which is marked on the side of your weapon. Ever. There are many, many reasons for this, to include chamber pressures, tolerances of the internal components, and not the least of which the "timing" of the pistol. Let's not leave out the fact the 9mm Ultra has a tapered casing, which means the chamber of a pistol designed to fire it will be tapered as well. Trying to stuff a 9mm kurz cartridge into the chamber is sure to cause binding or at least "slop" at the rear of the chamber.

Here are the specifications for the three different cartridges mentioned:

.380 Auto (or 9mm kurz)

Case type Rimless, straight
Bullet diameter .355 in (9.0 mm)
Neck diameter .373 in (9.5 mm)
Base diameter .374 in (9.5 mm)
Rim diameter .374 in (9.5 mm)
Rim thickness .045 in (1.1 mm)
Case length .680 in (17.3 mm)
Overall length .984 in (25.0 mm)

9mm Luger, 9mm parabellum or 9 x 19mm

Case type Rimless, tapered
Bullet diameter 9.01 mm (0.355 in)
Neck diameter 9.65 mm (0.380 in)
Base diameter 9.93 mm (0.391 in)
Rim diameter 9.96 mm (0.392 in)
Rim thickness 0.90 mm (0.035 in)
Case length 19.15 mm (0.754 in)
Overall length 29.69 mm (1.169 in)

9mm Ultra or 9mm Police

Case Type................Tapered
Bullet diameter...........9mm
Case Length...............18mm
Case Opening..............9.02mm
Mouth Diameter............9.68mm
Base Diameter.............9.87mm
Extractor Base Diameter...9.5mm


I know you may be very interested in this rather rare pistol, but I'm fairly certain why it's for sale. You're just not going to have a lot of luck finding ammunition for it, especially in Kalifornia. Even if you do manage to find ammunition, expect it to be big, BIG $$$!

-Pilotsteve
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Dinkydau, it can never be recommended to fire ANY cartridge aside from that which is marked on the side of your weapon. Ever. There are many, many reasons for this, to include chamber pressures, tolerances of the internal components, and not the least of which the "timing" of the pistol. Let's not leave out the fact the 9mm Ultra has a tapered casing, which means the chamber of a pistol designed to fire it will be tapered as well. Trying to stuff a 9mm kurz cartridge into the chamber is sure to cause binding or at least "slop" at the rear of the chamber.

Here are the specifications for the three different cartridges mentioned:

.380 Auto (or 9mm kurz)

Case type Rimless, straight
Bullet diameter .355 in (9.0 mm)
Neck diameter .373 in (9.5 mm)
Base diameter .374 in (9.5 mm)
Rim diameter .374 in (9.5 mm)
Rim thickness .045 in (1.1 mm)
Case length .680 in (17.3 mm)
Overall length .984 in (25.0 mm)

9mm Luger, 9mm parabellum or 9 x 19mm

Case type Rimless, tapered
Bullet diameter 9.01 mm (0.355 in)
Neck diameter 9.65 mm (0.380 in)
Base diameter 9.93 mm (0.391 in)
Rim diameter 9.96 mm (0.392 in)
Rim thickness 0.90 mm (0.035 in)
Case length 19.15 mm (0.754 in)
Overall length 29.69 mm (1.169 in)

9mm Ultra or 9mm Police

Case Type................Tapered
Bullet diameter...........9mm
Case Length...............18mm
Case Opening..............9.02mm
Mouth Diameter............9.68mm
Base Diameter.............9.87mm
Extractor Base Diameter...9.5mm


I know you may be very interested in this rather rare pistol, but I'm fairly certain why it's for sale. You're just not going to have a lot of luck finding ammunition for it, especially in Kalifornia. Even if you do manage to find ammunition, expect it to be big, BIG $$$!

-Pilotsteve
Thank you Pilot Steve for the info. I know one must not try to use a different caliber even though the measurements may be close in any gun. Believe me, I am well aware of that. This was why i was asking.
So according to another post, 9mm Ultra is alright to use?? Dont know. I may be able to pick up the exact ammo, exact cartridge measurement and weight of powder. The 9X18, may be expensive and rare. I have 3 M1 Garands and dont shoot them much because there is little ammo out there; with the gas pressures and all to accomodate the Garand. The regular 30-06 stuff; the press. is too high. This is why people use use those adjustable gas plugs. I dont do that.
Maybe a pipedream. The pistol may be rare,but.............I want to shoot it and dont want it to be a safe queen. I may just pass on it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,227 Posts
The pistol may be rare,but.............I want to shoot it and dont want it to be a safe queen. I may just pass on it.
Then pass on it, my friend. Go find yourself a regular ole' PPK or PPK/S (whichever fits your hand the best) and enjoy it for the rest of your life. Some will argue the virtues of the two calibers available for it, and I'll offer my brief input here:

9mm kurz (.380 Auto)

Positives:
Fairly common and easy to find.
Plenty nasty enough for self-defense purposes.
Lower cost per shot.
PPK's in this caliber are far more common and much lower priced.

Negatives:
A very "snappy" and sharp recoil, which can be quite unpleasant.
Some reliability issues. This caliber is the absolute maximum possible in a direct-blowback pistol such as the PPK.

7.65 x 17mm (.32 Auto)

Positives:

Very pleasant to shoot. These pistols are sweethearts.
Extraordinary reliability and accuracy.
You get an extra cartridge in your magazine vs. 9mm kurz.
This is the caliber these pistols were designed to fire.

Negatives:

Sometimes hard to find this caliber of cartridge (at least here in Massakistan, anyway).
Definitely more expensive to shoot per cartridge.
Pistols in this caliber are much more expensive and harder to find.

Hope this helps a bit, dinkydau. Oh, and I feel your pain regarding the laws in your state. If you want a fresh dose of the asinine, walk a mile in my shoes here in the Peoples Republik of Massachus-Istan.

-Pilotsteve
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
I reload 9x18Ultra ammo on a Dillon Square Deal B using 9mm Luger dies and a .380acp shellplate. I either use 9x18ultra brass or .38Super Comp casings cut down to 17.97mm. Both brass types work well. I have used various types of jhp or prn 95 or 100gr bullets (.355") with Bullseye, TiteGroup or Power Pistol powder. The 9mm Ultra is a tremendously accurate round when fired from the PP-Super or Sig P230.

The 9x18Ultra headspaces on the case mouth. So a .380 bullet seats very deep in the chamber. When fired, I suspect the recoil pushes the spent casing back into the breach where rim is grabbed by the ejector. Alternatively, the bullet may stay back against the breach with rim held by extractor. In which case the bullet would be effectively headspaced by its rim. I am certain a more knowledgeable forum member could enlighten us on how it would work. :confused:

Regardless, as stated above, although people have been known to do it, it is not recommended to shoot .380acp ammo in a pistol chambered for 9x18mm Ultra.

Sent from my LG-E739 using Tapatalk 2
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
662 Posts
Question for someone who doesn't know better (Still have a lot to learn about all the different types of ammo out there). Is 9x18 Ultra the same as 9x18 Super? If so I know Georgia Arms has 9x18 ultra Georgia Arms - 9X18 ULTRA AUTO and I am honestly wondering because have seen a couple PP Supers at gun shows and have caught myself drooling, but my hubby is majorly put off by the ammo requirements. :rolleyes:
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,923 Posts
I believe we're talking about the same thing: The PP Super was chambered for the 9x18 Ultra round (unless you can find one of the rare PP Supers that was chambered for the .380 ACP), so I think you're seeing the terms "Super" and "Ultra" used interchangeably on the site to which you link goes.

There's been a PP Super on consignment at my favorite local gun store for well over a year now. I keep drooling, but as it's not in .380 I have passed on it so far.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,150 Posts
I reload 9x18Ultra ammo on a Dillon Square Deal B using 9mm Luger dies and a .380acp shellplate. I either use 9x18ultra brass or .38Super Comp casings cut down to 17.97mm. Both brass types work well. I have used various types of jhp or prn 95 or 100gr bullets (.355") with Bullseye, TiteGroup or Power Pistol powder. The 9mm Ultra is a tremendously accurate round when fired from the PP-Super or Sig P230.


Sent from my LG-E739 using Tapatalk 2
Thanks, Doc, I was assuming something like that based on your previous comments. The whole shell plate thing will make you crazy; let a .380 case creep into the 9mms; it will end up stuck in the sizing die.
If I ever run across an 9x18 at a great price, I'll have to give it some thought. Make a great range toy if nothing else.
And I'll bet a big cold beer that .380 only fires in the Ultra because the case is hanging from the extractor...this occurs more often than you might imagine, even when using proper ammo, in other guns as well.
Moon
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Moon,
I bet you are correct about the rim catching on the extractor but I'd still make the wager anyway. If you come across a nice, reasonably priced PP Super buy it. I have found I quite enjoy loading 9mm Ultra cartridges. You will want to consider attaching your case trimmer to a power drill, however. That's what I ended you doing. The .38 Super Comp casing is 9x21mm so each one needs to be trimmed down 3mm. That's Hell on the wrist after 20 or so. The cool thing about using .38 Super casings I'd that they are are designed for higher pressures than 9mm Ultra produces so they should last through several more reloadings.

If you are ever in Portland, look me up. We'll have to settle that eager.:beer:

Sent from my LG-E739 using Tapatalk 2
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Question for someone who doesn't know better (Still have a lot to learn about all the different types of ammo out there). Is 9x18 Ultra the same as 9x18 Super? If so I know Georgia Arms has 9x18 ultra Georgia Arms - 9X18 ULTRA AUTO and I am honestly wondering because have seen a couple PP Supers at gun shows and have caught myself drooling, but my hubby is majorly put off by the ammo requirements. :rolleyes:
9x18mm Ultra and 9x18mm Police designations both refer to the same caliber. Originally, they were nit exactly the same. Technically, the 9x18Ultra caliber was developed, but not pursued, in the 40's by Walther. The 9mm Police caliber was developed in the 1970's as a law enforcement alternative to the 9mm Kurtz, aka .380 acp. The latter caliber is what the PP Super is chambered for. Today, 9mm Police, 9mm Ultra and 9mm Super designations are used interchangeably. I found this confusing when I first started researching this caliber. It I'd a fabulous caliber however and the PP Super is a sweet pistol.

Sent from my LG-E739 using Tapatalk 2
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Weell, I know this may be a rare gun, but............I think I am going to pass on it. I live in a small condo which was formally a 2bdrm apt and dont have much room to do stuff. I dont have a garage or store room. I also dont want to invest in money to I guess re-do cartridge casing and do my own reloads, etc. I just want to be able to pick up the correct ammo at a local gunshow now and then and then go and shoot it. I am not a gun fanataic, but, I do like the Walther's; PP,PPK's, PPKS's, and the P38/1's. They are made of metal and look sleek and look like guns; hey James Bond!
If you put all those Glocks, with different models and generations, the new S&W's, Sig's and the new Walthers together, you cannot tell them apart. They all look the same with that new plastic all over the gun.
This is why I am infatuated with the Walthers. I had a P38 about 30yrs ago and sold it, dumb me.
its hard to find them where I live. I missed out on getting a TPH, 22LR in mint condtion with box and paperwork along with another PPKS, same thing and both were stainless. Come to find out, the owner wasnt a Calif resident and the sale could not go through. My hands are tied so I must go elsewhere online and hope someone puts one up for sale. I have been able to get mine through"private party transfer" only.
Enough rambling. All said I am going to pass on this one, thanx for the advice. Gotta bite my lip and move on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,150 Posts
Doc', thanks for the thoro' explanation. I have a power case trimmer that would serve, but I'd hate to let the empties hit the ground for fear of losing them! One of many things I like about 9mm; I have so lousy many cases that losing a couple doesn't signify at all.

Steve, great explanation of the vices and virtues of the .32 and .380; should be a sticky somewhere for the uninitiated. Bravo!
Moon
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,154 Posts
Question for someone who doesn't know better (Still have a lot to learn about all the different types of ammo out there). Is 9x18 Ultra the same as 9x18 Super?
I don't know any 9x18 Super, only the Hirtenberg (Austria) 9x17 Super. Hirtenberg developed the 9mm Super as a very strong 9x17, but they were never produced comercially in great numbers. Since Hirtenbergs insolvency in 2004 the Hirtenberg label is a part of RUAG (Swiss).




The hint under the "9mm Super" means: "Only for pistol Walther PP Super".
Walther made ~1300 PP Super in cal. 9mm Super, the others were made in cal. 9x18 Ultra (=> Ultra or Police: it's the same).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,002 Posts
My 9X18 Ultra dies were made by RCBS in the 90's but they do not make them anymore. You can use 9mm Luger dies to load 9mm Ultra/Police though!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,252 Posts
To dispel a common myth, you can find new-production Fiocchi online more-or-less all of the time. New Old Stock GECO is commonly available, too. Sans shipping, you are looking at around $0.40-$0.42/round. Cheap? Not by bulk 9mm standards, but not ridiculous. The PP Super is incredibly robust and well built, which is one reason that used ones continue to sell in the $500-900 range, depending on condition, accessories, etc. I just bought my second in 9x18 Ultra/Police, and I would buy more at the price that I paid. YMMV ;)
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top