Projectile Weight?

1635 Views 17 Replies 5 Participants Last post by Slartybartfast, Nov 15, 2018

Swoffer

Discussion Starter · Nov 11, 2018

I am just starting reloading for my M2 5” in 9 mm and am not having much luck getting a good grouping with 124gn Berry’s projectiles. I have played around with various powders & weights and I am wondering if a heavier or lighter projectile will give a better result. Is there any consensus on this?
Thanks in advance for any advice.

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Scouts10

· #2 · Nov 12, 2018 (Edited)

let see if i can remember . . . .
is 124 what you want to stay with or just experimenting ?
Berry's has 6 different 124 profiles...what are you using ?
are we looking for 1. accuracy
2. penetration
this is assuming your working out of a load data book, right ?
I always started mid load and worked up....NEVER got near max as the majority
of ACCURATE combinations were at slower speeds. Same with .22s and air rifles.

I'd try some 147grns also. be safe !

and when firing your loads....... its fully supported or in a cradle ? chrono spread ?

MMA10mm

· #3 · Nov 12, 2018

Swoffer said:
I am just starting reloading for my M2 5” in 9 mm and am not having much luck getting a good grouping with 124gn Berry’s projectiles. I have played around with various powders & weights and I am wondering if a heavier or lighter projectile will give a better result. Is there any consensus on this?
Thanks in advance for any advice.

So, not sure if you know, thus will say: Plated need to be loaded and treated like cast bullets: bell the cases, use cast bullet loads.

Second, I much prefer X-treme plated, if you can get them down there.

Third, aim for a load 3-7% under max. That's best accuracy, in all liklihood.

Swoffer

Discussion Starter · #4 · Nov 12, 2018

Thanks Scouts10. I am just experimenting so am happy to try other projectile weights. The Berry's 124gn I am using is the round nose solid base. We don't have a large selection available down here in NZ and this is often available unlike some others. I am looking for accuracy and am sticking to the load book but I have been experimenting at the bottom end of the load data. Fully supported when testing so it's not me (I hope!). I haven't chrono'd yet but will attempt that soon. Cheers

Swoffer

Discussion Starter · #5 · Nov 12, 2018

Thanks MMA10. Not seen X-treme plated down here, very difficult to get regular supply of anything in NZ. Just when you find what works you find they are out of stock for a few months. Shipping anything out of the US these days is problematic it seems and as we are a small market we tend to be placed at the rear of the queue for supply. I have been waiting for at least 6 months for magazines for my S&W M&P rifle and still don't have an ETA! I will try loading up as per your suggestion to 3-7% under max. Cheers

Scouts10

· #6 · Nov 13, 2018 (Edited)

what kind of restrictions on import of shooting sport supplies & such DOWN there ! Much the same as Australia ? Are you allowed to buy from out of the country for those item you wish?

I'd take some video of a Cabelas gun dept and sent it but i hate to hear a grown man cry

Here is a good one I just bought 25 inch pattern mags for an Aussie FAL project..... It took 2 weeks start to finish

IS there someone near you that also is and has been reloading ? If your just starting . . . . . make him you FRIEND !

Slartybartfast

· #7 · Nov 13, 2018

Scouts10 said:
what kind of restrictions on import of shooting sport supplies & such DOWN there ! Much the same as Australia ? Are you allowed to buy from out of the country for those item you wish?

As a Canadian, I'll chime in that the biggest problem in getting firearms related products is not Canadian law but American law. It's the ITAR regulations that make getting stuff out of the USA difficult.

I could import up to 5000 cartridges of ammunition for personal use through Canadian customs without any problem what-so-ever. But it is illegal for a US store to sell a non-resident alien ammunition, illegal for one to buy, and illegal for anyone to export without an export licence.

It's only a 45 minute drive to a big US Gander Mountain store. But I could get busted in the parking lot by local police loading the car, or by Homeland Security or US Customs approaching the border. Canadian Customs will just ask me for my firearms licence and might charge me tax if I'm above my dollar limit for the trip length.

Just saying this because I've talked with so many Americans that are quick to talk down on Canadian law when in some areas our laws are actually more lax than the American laws. I'm assuming some of that is similar for other countries too.

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Robertbank

· #8 · Nov 13, 2018

Those Berry bullets ought to be going through one hole with the M2 5". What loads are you using and what speeds are you driving them at? I shoot IDPA and keep my loads around 1,100 fps with lead, plated and full metal jacket. The PPQ will handle that bullet really well. For testing purposes do you shoot off a rest? You should If they group around an inch at 15 yards and they don't when you shoot standing frestyle it isn't the load/gun that is the problem. Do you have a chronograph? Need a decent pistol rest and a chrono if you want to get the most out of reloading.

Take Care

Bob
I believe it was George W's administration that signed the US onto ITAR. Trudeau hasn't got there yet. He just wants to ban all handguns.

Scouts10

· #9 · Nov 14, 2018 (Edited)

Slartybartfast said:
As a Canadian, I'll chime in that the biggest problem in getting firearms related products is not Canadian law but American law. It's the ITAR regulations that make getting stuff out of the USA difficult.

I could import up to 5000 cartridges of ammunition for personal use through Canadian customs without any problem what-so-ever. But it is illegal for a US store to sell a non-resident alien ammunition, illegal for one to buy, and illegal for anyone to export without an export licence.

It's only a 45 minute drive to a big US Gander Mountain store. But I could get busted in the parking lot by local police loading the car, or by Homeland Security or US Customs approaching the border. Canadian Customs will just ask me for my firearms licence and might charge me tax if I'm above my dollar limit for the trip length.

Just saying this because I've talked with so many Americans that are quick to talk down on Canadian law when in some areas our laws are actually more lax than the American laws. I'm assuming some of that is similar for other countries too.

I think the OP is in NZ . . . . not Canada ?
I asked the question because i'm not familiar, that was my angle. But why ***** about the USA export faults. Tell your country that
you want it, and it should be permitted to be manufactured . . in CANADA ? grass roots !
Is it LAX there because they don't allow manufacturing it and therfore can control import distribution more easily ? I guess so.

Haven't heard a word about talking down Canadian law ?
I'll even ask if such weapons laws are in effect are they the same for ALL members of the Commonwealth ???

Is it goofy over here . . . . .HELL yes !

(we'll trade you Nancy Pelosi for Trudeau, and throw in $50m . . . . . . . deal ? ? ? !! )
Swoffer feeling left out ? (we'll trade you Chuck Shumer & daughter, and throw in $60m . . . . .for air fare costs !!.....DEAL ? ? ?
Is it goofy over there. . . . . ??

Swoffer

Discussion Starter · #10 · Nov 14, 2018

Slartibartfast. We are the same here in NZ. Easy to get an import permit, NZ Police will give you one as long as it’s not a restricted item. Our laws are more lax than Australia with regard to pistol magazine capacity and Aussies aren’t even allowed semi-auto rifles! Our issue is getting anything out of the US, it can take months and can be very expensive. I said earlier I am waiting on a S&W 15-22 Magazine which our dealer has had on order for months and can’t get an ETA out of the US. Makes life hard for us but we are grateful that we have sensible laws here and it is a rigorous process to get a pistol license which largely keeps them out of the hands of those who shouldn’t have them.

Swoffer

Discussion Starter · #11 · Nov 14, 2018

Hi Robertbank. I have started with some Vihtavuori N320 as I had some I was using for ISSF. have started with 3.8gns. The reloading charts don’t reference the Berry’s 124gn projectile but most other projectiles referenced have a max load of 4.2/4.3gns so based on this I’m about 90% of the way to maximum. I haven’t had a chance to chrono yet but I plan on doing that next Tuesday at the range if the weather is good as it is all outdoors. I bought some Federal factory loads and the recoil difference is huge, they are much hotter so maybe I need to load closer to max. Better grouping but not great. I am shooting off a rest at around 22yards. Cheers

Slartybartfast

· #12 · Nov 14, 2018

Scouts10 said:
...
Is it LAX there because they don't allow manufacturing it and therefore can control import distribution more easily ? I guess so.
...
I'll even ask if such weapons laws are in effect are they the same for ALL members of the Commonwealth ???

You really shouldn't comment because you're just coming off as ignorant.
The restrictions are US law. Not Canadian. The OP confirms it's the same for NZ.
Trade happens, no one manufactures everything on their own.
And the commonwealth doesn't have any real powers or common laws.

Robertbank said:
I believe it was George W's administration that signed the US onto ITAR. Trudeau hasn't got there yet. He just wants to ban all handguns.

ITAR is purely US law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations

Although there are international agreements as well.

How about we leave this thread for bullets and reloading. Can PM me or start a new thread somewhere otherwise.

Robertbank

· #13 · Nov 14, 2018

I stand corrected on my ITAR comment although you should know Chretien was offered an exemption to the uS restrictions and he chose to decline the offer. To be fair to our American friends they did offer Canada an exemption. Our Liberal Gov;t of the day declined.

Your comments to Scouts10 were spot on. Ignorance in some circles is bliss.

How about we leave the moderation of threads to the mods. Our friend in N.Z. came here looking for assistance and an understanding of what he is up against is probably helpful.

Too, Americans reading this thread might want to consider asking themselves why their government prohibits, inhibits, might be a better word, their enterprising business folks from exporting sporting arms to member countries of the Five Eyes. If I worked for a small manufacturing company producing small arm accessories I would be some ticked off with the restrictions. Especially considering the way the CIA manages to peddle arms to any war lord they think is in the US interest to support inside and outside the law.

Take Care

Bob

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Robertbank

· #14 · Nov 14, 2018 (Edited)

Swoffer email your address and I can send you my spreadsheet I have developed over the years that may help you with your loading. I have had good sucess with 431/HP38, Unique, CFE Pistol and Titegroup to name a few that work well in the 9MM using plated/FMJ and lead bullets in the 124/125 gr weight.

My email addressis: [email protected]

If you include your phone number in the email I can give you a call. No charge to me I have a plan that covers the costs. I can work out the time difference.

Take Care

Bob

Slartybartfast

· #15 · Nov 14, 2018

Robertbank said:
I stand corrected on my ITAR comment although you should know Chretien was offered an exemption to the uS restrictions and he chose to decline the offer. To be fair to our American friends they did offer Canada an exemption. Our Liberal Gov;t of the day declined.

I'd love to have more details about the offered exemption. I can only assume it wouldn't have been free of catches and obligations.
Would probably result in Canada having to enforce US-ITAR regulations on individuals and companies to prevent them selling US components onwards to other countries.

All I can find is that negotiations at the time in 1999 resulted from the US changing the regulations and eliminating many industry exemptions to ITAR. Negotiations had to be product-by-product to harmonise Canadian and US export laws.

And from my limited research, exemptions aren't straight forward. While category 1 items are exempt if shipment is lower than 500$ wholesale, still requires a licensed exporter and filing of the shipment with the electronic export registry system.

Anything ammo related is category 3, no exemptions.

Shotgun items and scopes are regulated separately by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Not ITAR.

Scouts10

· #16 · Nov 15, 2018 (Edited)

Slartybartfast

Humerous . . . . If you read carefully not just what you want to interpret but all inputs, there may be a differnt shade to the story.
To an arogant one, anyone is a lesser knowledged person than he. Its one way they . . .you . . .pat your self on the back.
Or gift your self as a key board corrector and or out loud assumer, or actually KBG.

My lack of detailed knowledge on the import export arms issue is quite common to the US citizens. I don't mind asking questions or making comments on what little
i have, because i saw no sign saying if you stumble we will eat you, and Because WE don't have the restrictions . . . in house . . . do we ?
Just go the the nearest Cabela's and look. Why should we put supplies out there that will be used against us, usually by terrorist groups. Which was
happening and still does. IF your country needs and or wants items then we are saying "make it yourself", sell it and track it to end.

And if it is as you say JUST TRADE, then why in fact do you not manufacture that which can not be exported by the overbearing US laws ?
Simple. . . it Just Politics . . . You government might really not want you to have it, and the scape goat is already in place! And so you can't have
it as it will not be manufactured in your house. And so the world turns.

Deeds . . not words

But i will give you the CommonWealth did and especially Canada made some GREAT FAL's ! ! !

no further interest

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Robertbank

· #17 · Nov 15, 2018

Slartybartfast said:
I'd love to have more details about the offered exemption. I can only assume it wouldn't have been free of catches and obligations.
Would probably result in Canada having to enforce US-ITAR regulations on individuals and companies to prevent them selling US components onwards to other countries.

All I can find is that negotiations at the time in 1999 resulted from the US changing the regulations and eliminating many industry exemptions to ITAR. Negotiations had to be product-by-product to harmonise Canadian and US export laws.

And from my limited research, exemptions aren't straight forward. While category 1 items are exempt if shipment is lower than 500$ wholesale, still requires a licensed exporter and filing of the shipment with the electronic export registry system.

Anything ammo related is category 3, no exemptions.

Shotgun items and scopes are regulated separately by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Not ITAR.

The exemption referred to the limitations for small part imports into Canada from the US. Canada declined the offer. There would be no need to harmonize the laws since any existing prohibited items would remain prohibitive. The exemption would have just allowed the export of items covered by ITAR to be exported to Canada without a permit requirement. You can do the research if you want and play lawyer later. Many small US companies making minor small arms parts are not going to expend the time and money to get export permits for their products to be sold into a relatively small Canadian market.

It is what it is. Hell a friend of mine in Texas tried to send me an old Redfield 4 power hunting scope and US Customs seized it.

Take Care

Bob

Slartybartfast

· #18 · Nov 15, 2018

Robertbank said:
It is what it is. Hell a friend of mine in Texas tried to send me an old Redfield 4 power hunting scope and US Customs seized it.

And that's not even covered by ITAR. Different government department.

I have tried researching, can't find anything on small parts being offered as fully exempt. As political as things get around firearms I don't like judging things without the hard facts of the matter.

Read it's close to 3000$ a year to have the export licence and need to know how to fill out all the paperwork for each "exempt" export of small parts under 500$ wholesale. It's no wonder that small companies want nothing to do with it.

So if we want anything from the US, buy from Brownells seems to be the only real choice if there's no Canadian importer. Maybe there's a business opportunity for an Amazon style market place for parts that qualify. But one outfit I found that will do the paperwork charges 39$US for the first item, 29$US for every other item, plus 5% of the invoice value.

Back to bullets an reloading, I can understand why CiblesCanadaTargets swore off ever importing bullets ever again.

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