Walther Forums banner

1 - 10 of 10 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Setup:
PPQ 45 SD
Skateboard Tape Grips
XS Standard Dot Sights
MB45 TriDelta Brake (Compensator)
Stock Mags w/ Taylor Freelance +4 Mag Extensions

Problem:
For a few range trips, everything was working fine with this setup with FMJ and JHP ammo. I and a few friends even tried producing a malfunction by deliberately limpwristing and still could not get a malfunction. Then, during the last two range trips, the gun would jam on one of the first few rounds in a full magazine. The round would be stuck horizontally between the feed ramp and the slide. It’s as if the slide doesn’t have enough dwell time at the rear to allow the round to tilt upwards toward the feed ramp and is pushed forward perpendicular to the ramp. No amount of forward force can push the round forward, but manually re-racking the slide will allow the round to pop up to the proper angle and chamber correctly. It may be the ammo as I switched sometime in the last month from Federal WM5233 (I don’t have the box, not sure. 230g FMJ. brass jacket.) to Fiocchi Range Dynamics (230g FMJ, copper jacket.), but I can’t be certain.

(If requested, I can provide and photo of the malfunction and/or diagram.)

Experiments:
Stock Magazines w/ +4 Removed: Works perfectly, but my point is to use the +4 extensions.
Heavier Glock 21 Mag Spring: No discernible difference.
Alternative Ammo: Haven’t had a chance to try yet. Ran out of the defense JHP before I could do a proper test.
Removal of Brake: As with the +4 extensions, I want to use this. Did not try removing it as it is hard to put back on correctly. I sure it will work without it.

***

I really want to be able to use a wide range of ammo with the +4s and the brake. Recommendations? I was thinking finding a lighter spring, but would appreciate guidance.

The PPQ 45 SD comes with one spring which Walther claims will work for suppressed or unsuppressed. Does the 45 SD have a different spring than the regular 45?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,756 Posts
Experiments:
Stock Magazines w/ +4 Removed: Works perfectly, but my point is to use the +4 extensions.
Heavier Glock 21 Mag Spring: No discernible difference.
Alternative Ammo: Haven’t had a chance to try yet. Ran out of the defense JHP before I could do a proper test.
Removal of Brake: As with the +4 extensions, I want to use this. Did not try removing it as it is hard to put back on correctly. I sure it will work without it.
I'm glad you put this information out there as there is a lot less to figure out now in order to diagnose the issue.

It could be the springs on the mags with the extensions are too soft, it could be an issue with the internals of the mag with the extension installed, it could be that the brake is too heavy, or it could be that the brake is too effective in slowing the slide down as it is recoiling.

I would think that it would have to be one of the first three, as the .45 is a low pressure cartridge to begin with, and the compensated 1911 pistols I've shot didn't feel that much different than non-compensated 1911 pistols, in my hands.

I've seen manufacturers offer recoil springs to be used with suppressors that were both heavier, and lighter than stock, depending on the pistol. I don't have much experience with suppressors, and I'm not sure if the spring that Walther is offering is heavier or lighter than stock. If I had this issue on my pistol though, I would be looking for a lighter spring.

I'd start with the mags, since taking the extension off seems to help fix the issue according to your testing. If the weight of the compensator is too heavy, I'd suggest a lighter recoil spring, if you can find one that works. If the mag springs are too soft, I'd suggest a heavier mag spring, if you can find one that works. Hotter loads would probably also help.

But I'd much rather suggest that if the pistol does not work well with the aftermarket modifications, that you stick with a stock pistol. Especially if this is going to be used in any way as a defensive pistol. Stock PPQ .45 pistols don't seem to be having these issues, obviously.

What is this pistol going to be used for?

Are there any members out there using these same extensions without a brake installed, that are having these same issues?

Are there any members out there using the same brake without mag extensions, that are having these same issues?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
The +4 extensions use the stock spring as designed. (The 9mm +6 comes with a longer spring.)

I guess, ultimately, I am asking for recoil spring recommendations as I assume the slide is short stroking just enough to get behind the case, but not allow it to pop up to the proper angle before approaching the feed ramp. Meanwhile, I will test with +Ps and brass jacket to see if that makes a difference.

The gun works without the +4 extension (stock mags) and the brake.
The gun works with the +4 extensions without the brake.
The gun worked with both the +4 extensions and with the brake until recently (purpose of this thread).


This is not a defense gun, and will not be unless I can confirm it is reliable with a lot of testing. The modifications make it hand cannon anyway, so not suitable for carry either.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,871 Posts
The +4 extensions use the stock spring as designed. (The 9mm +6 comes with a longer spring.)

I guess, ultimately, I am asking for recoil spring recommendations as I assume the slide is short stroking just enough to get behind the case, but not allow it to pop up to the proper angle before approaching the feed ramp. Meanwhile, I will test with +Ps and brass jacket to see if that makes a difference.

The gun works without the +4 extension (stock mags) and the brake.
The gun works with the +4 extensions without the brake.
The gun worked with both the +4 extensions and with the brake until recently (purpose of this thread).


This is not a defense gun, and will not be unless I can confirm it is reliable with a lot of testing. The modifications make it hand cannon anyway, so not suitable for carry either.
You need to look for a stronger replacement mag spring to use with the +4 extensions. That'll help push the next round UP to the top a little quicker.

You also need to find a lighter recoil spring/rsa combo. I used guide rods from Stainless Steel Guide rods in a few of my pistols. These guide rods have a screw in the end to retain the spring...they use 'red' loctite on the threads. If you call them to place your order, you can tell em' to not use any loctite on the screw.

As for recoil springs, I've been using flat wire springs from Wilson Combat.

https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Flat-Wire-Recoil-Springs/products/579/

https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Flat-W...CP-P-Chrome-Silicon-20-Lb/productinfo/614G20/

https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Flat-W...-ACP-Chrome-Silicon-17-Lb/productinfo/614G17/

https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Flat-W...Size-Chrome-Silicon-15-Lb/productinfo/614G15/
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,647 Posts
Listen to fart he is wise in the ways of the Q!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for the help so far. This is what I was looking for.

I don't know where to find a stronger magazine spring (not that I have looked that hard). I did try a Glock 21 spring which added some noticeable strength to the front of the follower as intended, but it didn't help.

-What is the stock spring pressure for the 45?

-What pressures do you recommend I try? (They're pretty cheap, so I don't mind trying several.)
-What about the DPM Recoil Reducing Spring? Seems like it's stronger (counterproductive), but slows down the slide too (might solve the problem). (Almost bought it on sale, but was sold out.)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,871 Posts
I'm thinkin' the compensator is already slowing down the slide to the point you're having some failures. I'd be trying some lighter recoil springs. How far is your brass being thrown/kicked out?

I used an FN 45 magazine spring in my modded PPQ 45 mags. The FN mags hold 15 rounds. I used and modified the FN baseplate to work on my PPQ mags and also modified the PPQ follower, by drilling a tiny hole in the bottom to allow the little 'hook' on the top end of the spring to clip into the follower.

The mag springs are hard to find and last time I checked they were out of stock.

In addition, these springs are for, basically a +2 configuration, not a +4.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,756 Posts
Putting extra weight on the end of the barrel (or any part of the pistol that reciprocates) is going to slow the slide down as it cycles. The effect of putting extra weight on the reciprocating mass is exactly why Walther can use the same recoil spring on both the 9mm and .40S&W pistols. The .40 slide is heavier. It doesn't take that much to make a difference. The barrel also tilts upward, so putting weight on the very end of the barrel could arguably have the most effect on this.

A weaker mag spring can cause a few issues as well. It could be that the round is not moving up to the feed lips quick enough before the slide pushes it forward, or it could be that the round is being pushed forward during recoil because there is not enough spring strength to keep it in place.

Adjusting spring strength in semi-automatic pistols could be considered a delicate balance. Changing the strength of one spring can bring the whole operation of reliable function out of balance. No matter what changes you do to the springs, I doubt that with these aftermarket additions, that it will be as reliable in as many scenarios, environments, or conditions as it is in the stock configuration. It may be "reliable enough" for whatever you're going to put it through, but I'd keep that in mind if this is going to be a defensive pistol.

Even with +2 extensions, you should be using a different mag spring strength. Even more so if you are using +4 extensions. I've shot Glock pistols with +2 extensions that encountered reliability issues because of spring strength with the extensions installed. My own Glock 20 was one of these pistols.

Put too weak of a recoil spring, and then you can encounter failure to return to battery issues, or issues staying in battery. Put too strong of a recoil spring, and you can encounter short recoil where the slide doesn't move far enough to the rear to reliably chamber the next round. Put too weak of a mag spring, and you can encounter feeding issues, where the top round in the mag moves forward during recoil, or issues where the rounds get stuck in the mag body. Put too heavy of a mag spring, and you can encounter issues with cycling. Put too weak of a striker spring, and you can encounter light primer strikes. Put too heavy of a striker spring, and you can encounter issues returning to battery.

The manufacturers know this, and from the factory the target is to end up with a design that strikes a balance between reliability and durability in all sorts of environments and conditions with different shooters with different grip strength, with ammunition of different designs and different energy levels, from the first round in the mag with the most available mag spring strength, to the last round in the mag with the least available mag spring strength, from the first round in the mag with the most overall weight in the pistol, to the last round in the mag with the least overall weight in the pistol.

I'm just putting this out there to put it out there. If this is going to be a defensive pistol, you should do a lot of testing with a lot of different ammunition types in a lot of different conditions before trusting the pistol, with a completely stock pistol. That much more if you want to change the design with aftermarket parts that change the weight of the reciprocating parts, the overall weight of the pistol, and the spring rates of the recoil and mag springs.

Whatever recommendations you get and whatever parts you end up installing in this pistol, I'd suggest a whole lot of testing before trusting it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
I am aware of science and theory provided above, but I am looking for specific recommendations on what to do next, so I want to return focus back to recoil springs. (I don't intend for that to sound rude or dismissive. The input from imaoldfart and balance is appreciated and is definetly useful.)

How heavy is the stock PPQ 45 SD spring and what weight spring(s) do you recommend I try (in lbs)? I haven't noticed much of a difference in the ejection pattern (I did with a comp on my PPQ 9).

As I stated, this is not going to be a defensive pistol. Even if I could trust it, it's too big. Also, I have already tried a stronger Glock 21 spring that added significantly more pressure to the front of the follower, but did not help. I may look into the FN mag springs. Because the rounds pop perfectly into place when I manually pull the slide back far enough to not touch the brass, my noob theory is a slide speed issue (dwell time behind the round).
 
1 - 10 of 10 Posts
Top