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Discussion Starter #1
Went to the range tonight with the PPQ .22. Fired 100 rounds of CCI Mini-Mags, with no malfunctions. When it was time to sweep up the indoor range I noticed that the spent brass from the .22 seemed to show a 'bulge' from expansion near the rim. This was always directly opposite the firing pin strike. I examined the pistol and didn't see anything obviously wrong. It appears that a new, unfired round fully seated in the chamber. However if you dropped in a spent casing it would not fully seat (b/c the deformed brass). I noted that you could indeed pull the trigger and fire the pistol without the deformed casing fully seated.

Attached is a photo of some of the spent casings as well as a new round for comparison. Any thoughts? Back to Walther again? Or is this just an ammo issue?
 

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I'd try CCI Standard.

CCI Mini-Mags are overly hot for the gun, and should not be necessary for consistent functioning.

Some .22 pistols need higher velocity ammo to cycle the slide and eject consistently, but from my experience the PPQ does not.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Fair point, I plan on testing it again today, but shouldn't it *work* with Mini-Mags? I've never had a problem with them in my P22 or any other gun for that matter.
 

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No, stop firing this pistol immediately and call Ft Smith for it to be returned. Even the lowly .22 round develops tremendous pressure and can injure you or others. It can also damage your pistol.

Recently there have been three threads/posts regarding issues will extraction in the P22 new pistols. An unheard of problem in the past was barrel/chamber issues yet, all of these needed to have factory work on the out of spec chamber. So, call Ft. Smith. They will e-mail a shipping label and take care of everything 100% on their dime.

Firing out of battery is a serious issue and most firearms are designed so the that they won't. Either the trigger bar is disconnected, the primer is not aligned with the firing pin, etc. It seems a lot of people don't understand this. If you shove that powerful 1911 into the perp causing the slide to be pressed rearward a bit....you won't be able to fire the pistol. 1917
 

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If you suspect the ammo....doubtful....a simple test is to remove the slide and try dropping a round into the chamber. The round should fall "all" the way in, full seating under the pull of gravity. If it does't with several brands of ammo....clean the barrel/chamber and retest. If it still won't allow a round to drop in...it definitely needs to go back for service. But whatever, stop firing it until resolved either by cleaning, ammo change or factory service.. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter #6
1917-1911:

Before I read this, I did exactly what you described. I field stripped the pistol, and dropped rounds into the chamber. I dropped CCI Mini Mags, CCI SV, Remington GB, and Eley Target (all the brands I had on hand). Each round appeared to drop into the chamber and fully seat.

I suspect an out of spec (oversize) chamber. The pistol has never seen more than 100 rounds without a cleaning, so I do not believe a dirty chamber is at fault. Using an already-spent casing it does seem that the pistol could fire out-of-battery as well. I've decided it needs to be returned (again).

I will call Walther on Monday, but I may ask the LGS to handle the shipping/receiving. With my work travel schedule and unknown turnaround time from Walther I would rather it get signed for and sit there than try to have FedEx/UPS sit on it until I get back.
 

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Make sure when you do the drop tests that the cartridge is fully seating, not just dropping in. Then entire case needs to be supported inside of the chamber. Just a solid plunk isn't good enough if the nose of the round or front of the case is running into something that keeps the front of the rim from seating against the chamber. For some reason your rounds don't seem to be seating all the way into the chamber. Could be a bad batch of ammo but it should still not be able to bulge out if fully seated. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Make sure when you do the drop tests that the cartridge is fully seating, not just dropping in. Then entire case needs to be supported inside of the chamber. Just a solid plunk isn't good enough if the nose of the round or front of the case is running into something that keeps the front of the rim from seating against the chamber. For some reason your rounds don't seem to be seating all the way into the chamber. Could be a bad batch of ammo but it should still not be able to bulge out if fully seated. 1917
They are fully seating as far as I can see. Even with force applied, they will not go any further. It appears to me that the bottom of the chamber is "chamfered" somewhat. I suspect it's too much and is not fully supporting the bottom of the case. This is also where the bulges always appear. Visibility to this part of the rim is limited when a round is inserted so it's hard to confirm without further disassembly of components.
 

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Here is a picture of round seated in a P22. I have the slide removed but the breech block is in position. I'd like to see a good picture of the bottom of the chamber entrance that you refer too. It has been my experience that a small amt of non supported case will not cause problems. The QD P22 has a cut out in the chamber wall of a few thousandths to allow the extractor to reach in and there is no problem. On the other hand, when Walther first began to chamfer the chamber entrance on the P22, they cut the chamber wall too thin at the extractor cut. This metal could then crack off exposing a....say 1/18" square section of the case.....and, stingers would blow out. I have a picture of that I grabbed off the net somewhere. And, I had a 2009 model with the same issue only I lightly filed off the thin metal....very similar to what we now see on thee QD model in order to prevent the metal from breaking. 1917



Picture of the case as seen through the recessed extractor cut. This is new. Previous efforts here did not show the side of the case.



Here is a picture of the Smith full size chamber that Walther makes. Note the chamfer at the bottom of the chamber entrance. How does this compare to what you are seeing with your PPQ? Also note the very thin chamber metal at the extractor cut.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
It was difficult to take good photos but here is what it looks like, included with a new round seated.

I'm not sure whether or not that small bit could make a difference, but it's interesting to me that it's where the bulge is every single time. I'm familiar with that thin metal by the extractor cut on my P22Q as well.
 

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In looking at your pictures it seems the chamber is pretty similar to the one Walther puts on the Smith pistol. It helps when taking photos of pistol parts to clean them and remove the oil....helps with too much gloss and reflection. I do see that the Walther version has the same additional grinding of the rear steel at the extractor cut that the P22 QD has. The Smith does not and has a chamber wall at the cut that reaches all the way to the rear of the chamber. Similar to older P22s with very thin steel. The other difference is that the P22 has never had a recessed breech face that holds the rear of the case securely in position. This makes manual extraction difficult ( the case simply fall off the bottom of the breech face ) and doesn't keep the spent case securely in position for consistent hits on the ejector. Walther added a tongue on the bottom of the breech block face to support the bottom of the case. The cut out in the feed ramp may be adding to your issue....hard to tell.

I can't tell from the pictures if the center ring around the chamber entrance is recessed and then recessed some more due to the chamfer of the bottom of the chamber. Regardless, your ammo is dangerously close to blowing out and you need to contact Ft Smith about it. It is always good to inspect your spent cases from time to time even if they are only .22 ammo. 1917



Again, the Walther made Smith but I bet the Walther is the same here. No nonsense extractor and the sort of funky tongue....but it works.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
The center ring around the chamber entrance is definitely slightly recessed, and I think the chamfer recesses it some more.

Thank you 1917-1911M and others for spending time responding and sharing your knowledge!

I do make a habit of looking at my spent cases to see if they are indicative of any possible issues..

I will report on the resolution once Walther gets a hold of the pistol.
 

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Unless I just can't see it....the bulge is rather large and it appears the round is not fully seated. If the slide is not fully closed the trigger bar should be disconnected. I'd wonder how far back the slide has to be pressed before operation of the trigger is blocked/disconnected. It should not be much.

It's all my fault. The predecessor of all this was the P22 and there was no chamfer at the bottom of the chamber entrance and the pistol fed fine but lacking something to fool around with I re-profiled the chamber entrance....this was about in 2005 or so. In 2009 Walther got into the act...their first attempt was absolutely terrible from the one I got and pictures I've seen. I still can't see exactly what is going on in the picture. The breech face must hold that case against the rear of the chamber until pressure drops. An out of spec breech face could allow the round to fire while not fully seated...say, if the front of the face sits too far rearward of the chamber entrance. 1917



Original P22 chamber which I never had any feed problems with...



Then one rainy Saturday I did this and posted it....



Then in 2009 I bought a new P22 with the factory effort....it was all I could do to straighten this mess out. Note that the chamfer effort went all the way around the entire chamber entrance. If of any benefit, it would only be at the bottom. Apparently these were early CCP folks practicing on P22s. These were the ones where the chamfer was carried too high, cut the metal at the extractor cut too thin and some broke off there. Mine included.



I sent pictures to the chief engineer and asked...."what is this!". Pretty soon, Walther had it sorted out nicely and they still do on the P22. I can't see any area for improvement on the chamber of the QD pistol. I'm still not sure there is any benefit to the bottom chamfer though.
 

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I think I will head over to a gun shop and see if I can find one of these pistols. I'll take my camera. Unfortunately, the last two shops I hit last week had one CCP and that was it for the Walther brand. I find this isn't unusual around here. I don't know what the problem is Nova....but it is an unsafe problem. Ft Smith needs to see this. 1917
 

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Just a thought... Is it at all possible that the extra pressure of the mini-Mag is causing the slide to start to move prematurely, perhaps because of a weak recoil spring, thus starting ejection before the pressure had dropped sufficiently which I turn allowed the case to bulge?


gonzo, SoCenPA. "Before all else, be armed." --Niccolo Machiavelli
**ISO P.38 ac42 mag 4848b, and PPK mag 285129K/2**
 

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Could be Gonzo...but these have been out a while and this is the first I've read of this issue. Pretty easy to manually hold a slide closed on a .22 but I wouldn't put my hand anywhere near the chamber. Eye either. 1917
 

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On the contrary

No, stop firing this pistol immediately and call Ft Smith for it to be returned. Even the lowly .22 round develops tremendous pressure and can injure you or others. It can also damage your pistol.

Recently there have been three threads/posts regarding issues will extraction in the P22 new pistols. An unheard of problem in the past was barrel/chamber issues yet, all of these needed to have factory work on the out of spec chamber. So, call Ft. Smith. They will e-mail a shipping label and take care of everything 100% on their dime.

Firing out of battery is a serious issue and most firearms are designed so the that they won't. Either the trigger bar is disconnected, the primer is not aligned with the firing pin, etc. It seems a lot of people don't understand this. If you shove that powerful 1911 into the perp causing the slide to be pressed rearward a bit....you won't be able to fire the pistol. 1917

My P22 will not properly eject American Eagle 40 gr. I sent it back to the factory and they said that it needs MiniMags to operate properly. It is beginning to sound as if Walther tolerances will not permit the use of the many manufacturers of ammo available. While that may work for a specific match target pistol, the P22 (and PPQ 22) do not fall in that classification.
 

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Hmm, curious - I am seeing exactly this, but with CCI standard velocity rounds. Was wondering what's going on.


That said, I just dropped one spent empty shell (with a bulge) in, which of course didn't drop all the way due to bulge, then pulled the trigger. While hammer did drop, striker didn't hit the cartridge, so some sort of safety feature must have kicked in.


On a related matter, I just had a failure to fire, repeatedly (over 3 cartridges until I gave up). All cartridges that failed to fire didn't have any striker marks on them at all. I looked at the drop safety catch and it *might* have been in a way for these hits somehow (???), as its bottom corner looked like it may have been hit. I never dropped the gun, so that couldn't have been the cause.


The gun was dirty (probably after ~400-500 rounds fired over ~4 weeks), so it might have been that, but immediately before these failures to fire it worked just fine (it happened in the middle of a comp).


Update: looks like the firing pin spring (part #28) broke, as the pin is not returning all the way back. Oh, well - off to the dealer to get it fixed! I shot probably ~3000 rounds since new, but still, wasn't expecting this!
 
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