[sub-moa]

Hi Folks:
New to WaltherForum, actually, new to forums in general. Been reading the forum for a short while, ya'll sound like a good group, so I thought I'd join in. Carried the PP series for duty (U/C), Back-up and Off-Duty for 30+ years, so you could say I'm a fan. Still have my '71 PPK/s, W. German/Interarms import, 9mmk, 1502XXS. Switched to a stainless PPK, USA/Interarms, 9mmk, A0509XX in '90 (S. Florida). Just picked-up a somewhat odd French PPK/s pristine condition w/ box/papers (no dates). Left slide reads same as my '71 but without "Made in W. Germany" (obviously) under the banner and it says "Under License of" (like my USA PPK) above the Carl Walther Waffenfabrik. Right slide, my '71 has the Interarms "star" while the French pistol does not and the French Crown proof instead of the Eagle over N proof. The chamber area has the Crown proof with "St. Etienne" vs. the "71 antler" and Eagle over N. On the butt there is a very small Manhurin logo and very small "Made in France". The serial numbers are identical in style and at the usual locations. The French pistol is just over 101,000 numbers higher @ 2516XXS. Now I know all the PP series were made in France from like 1952 through the mid '80's regardless of German proofs and "Made in W. Germany", but I've only seen one other pistol marked like this and that one was a PP within 70 numbers of mine. I've handled plenty of the fully Manhurin marked pistols and the serial number sequence appears different. I understand the French Pistols are hard to date because there is no dated proof stamp like the ones they shipped across the border to Ulm/Dornau for proofing and "Made in W. Germany" marking. Yes, there is a question here...Were the French pistols like this one numbered in sequence with the "German" pistols as it might appear? If so, would it be safe to speculate that the French pistol is a couple years newer than my "German" Pistol. What do ya'll think?
p.s. Sure hope I don't get the boot for such a long post, just got kind of carried away!

 

[MGMike]

Yes, there is a question here...Were the French pistols like this one numbered in sequence with the "German" pistols as it might appear? If so, would it be safe to speculate that the French pistol is a couple years newer than my "German" Pistol. What do ya'll think?
p.s. Sure hope I don't get the boot for such a long post, just got kind of carried away!

And the answers are:

a) Yes, within a given model, e.g., PPK/s.

b) The French gun was made c.1982-84.

M

 

[sub-moa]

Thanks Mike:
I guess that means Walther only made, at most, an average of 9200 "German" and French PPK/s pistols per year over those years '71 to '82?

 

[MGMike]

I am less sure what it means.

I have a PPK/s, s/n 121776-S, dated 1972. I also have two others in the 236-238,000-S range, both dated "IA" (1981).

In any event, extrapolation to arrive at annual figures is dangerous. It presumes steady production, which is seldom true.

M

 

[sub-moa]

Yeah I see what you mean...your 121776S is dated '72 while my 1502XXS is dated '71...almost 29,000 difference, and the wrong way too...that is weird. Anyway...thanks for your response(s)

 

[MGMike]

Further to the reliability of extrapolation:

My PPK/s s/n 173174-S is dated 1973.

However, my 229035-S is coded "HI" (1978).

M

 

[sub-moa]

PPk/s DOB

Not to beat this to death M, but... out of all the pistols we've both listed, the only number/date out of sequence and confusing me is 1217XXS @ '72 (it is 28,000+ before my '71 and is dated '72?).
All the others follow in sequence: my 1502XXS @ '71 (apparently I can't post pictures but I just took a close-up of my '71 and it is a '71) then your 173174S @ '73 (at least 23,000 made btwn '71 & '73) your 229035S @ '78 (at least 56,000 made btwn '73 & '78), both your 236000S & 238000S range @ '81 (at least 9,000+ made btwn '78 & '81), and my French pistol 2516XXS @ the '82to '84 you suggest (at least 14,000 made btwn '81 & '82/'84). The apparent production numbers between years certainly confirms your advice regarding extrapolation, but they all follow in sequence, all that is , except 1217XXS??? Hey M, if you get bored w/ this let me know, I don't mean to be a pest. BUT thanks!

 

[ceb289]

ppk/ DOB

I troll through the forums daily and I saw this post. I have had a ppk/s like the one mentioned, but I have never been able to find any information on it. I bought the gun used about 5 years ago. The serial number is 2560XXS and it has the "made in France" markings. I can guess that this was made in the early 80's based on what I have read here. I was also lucky enough to get the original box, and the paperwork included the target, manual and a French certificate from the Chambre de Commerce et D'Industrie de Saint-E'tienne that is also serial numbered to the pistol. I am guessing from trying to decipher the French language, that this is a certificate of proofing at the St. E'tienne factory. This pistol is probably not a collector specimen, but is shoots great, carries great, and with all of the paperwork that I have with it, it is an interesting piece.

 

[sub-moa]

ceb: Sounds like our Frog pistols are very similar, yours is about 4500 newer than mine. Mine came w/ box, manual, target and St. Etienne certificate too, but nothing is dated. Just like to know as much as possible about each of my pieces. This one will be a shooter, just like everything else I own. Thanks for the response too.

 

[sub-moa]

For those developing a data base...just received a response from Carl Walther GmbH-Germany re: the Walther marked "French" PPk/s 2516XX S I began this thread about...manufactured in 1982.

 

[photohause]

Welcome to the forum and enjoy sub-moa!

 

[crazy charlie]

Interesting thread

Hey submoa. Nice to hear that someone other than myself carried the pieces you described as duty/backup.
If it isn't too much trouble can you post a photo of your latest acquisition?

 

[sub-moa]

Thanks Photohause, this forum thing ain't too bad

Hey Charlie, I haven't mastered the photo routine as of yet, but would be happy to post pics once I sit down and figure it out...until then Stay Safe Brother

 

[crazy charlie]

As far as photos: I took pictures and put them in my computer. I got a membership at photobucket.com (free)
I logged on to photobucket, clicked new album,typed in a name and ok. after photobucket gurgicates a screen comes up and on the right side it gives you a browse, click it and find your picture and click upload. Once you upload is complete your picture will show up further down the screen with four options down the left side of the photo. The last of these says IMG. Click it.
Go to our forum and post a message. Right click the message screen and a little block of options apppear. Click Paste and your photo will be in your message.

 

[gunguru]

pp,ppk,ppk/s-french, german, ?

I kept waiting for it to be said, but it wasn't so here goes...all post war pp, ppk, ppk/s no matter how marked were made in France..then trucked to Germany and proofed there...Early 80's, Manuhrin tried to import under own name but Interarms stopped that, as they were the exclusive importer of those models of walther pistols...French guns were "under license" and so were the alabama guns and so are the S&W guns but the true German guns ended at the end of WWII. They had a couple of problems, 1) the plant was in East Germany and Allies did not allow German production of small arms per end of war agreement. Hope this helps some of the uninformed out there.

 

[banddr2]

I kept waiting for it to be said, but it wasn't so here goes...all post war pp, ppk, ppk/s no matter how marked were made in France..then trucked to Germany and proofed there...Early 80's, Manuhrin tried to import under own name but Interarms stopped that, as they were the exclusive importer of those models of walther pistols...French guns were "under license" and so were the alabama guns and so are the S&W guns but the true German guns ended at the end of WWII. They had a couple of problems, 1) the plant was in East Germany and Allies did not allow German production of small arms per end of war agreement. Hope this helps some of the uninformed out there.

You are close to correct, Walther's Ulm factory did begin making their own PP series pistols later on, I think in the late 70's or early 80's, and continued to export the pp and ppk/s to the US at the same time that the American licensed guns were being made in Alabama. Only the PPK could not be imported after the 1968 Gun Act.

 

[gunguru]

French-German?

You are close to correct, Walther's Ulm factory did begin making their own PP series pistols later on, I think in the late 70's or early 80's, and continued to export the pp and ppk/s to the US at the same time that the American licensed guns were being made in Alabama. Only the PPK could not be imported after the 1968 Gun Act.

Actually, both the German(french) PPK & TPH could and were imported after the '68 GCA but the were Law Enforcement Only. The french were still making them into the 80's and the InterArms Alabama guns came online at that time. As I said before, Manurhin tried to import their own branded guns and were stopped by InterArms. The post war "German" pp series of guns that received all the press about how great and the germans were the only gun makers in the entire world were French and as sick as that statement makes me, the pp series made during that period were the benchmark pocket pistols of their day and even today are the best offered. Too bad for their association with S&W for I've experienced their "customer NO-service" and it's not the best in the industry. Well, their lack of service is among the best in the industry. They should take a page or two out of Ruger or Kel-Tec's book of customer SERVICE. Those folks know how to treat a customer.....

 

[banddr2]

the true German guns ended at the end of WWII.

I agree, I was only referring to this statement. When Manhurin and Walther parted, Walther began making their PP series from scratch, and you are correct, they could import PPks to law enforcement. Even though the earlier PP series parts were made in Manhurin and trucked to Ulm, they still assembled and blued them at Ulm, that is where the quality issue comes in. Although I have no experience with the Manhurin PP's, but they also look to be of just as high quality as Walther. Germans seem to be a cut above the rest when it comes to working with steel. I wonder if Manhurin employed alot of misplaced German workers after the war?

 

[gunguru]

I agree about German guns, well, there was the RG's, but other than those, the guns are usually above the norm...They have been overpriced for a lot of those years, but that was more about the dollar than anything else, and being put together and proofed in Germany allowed them to be "Made in Germany" I'm sure German workers made the trip to France, as did a lot of other not so welcome Germans and I found over the years that Manurhin guns were equal in quaility but still lacked the word Germany to have the same effect on people and remember, this was a well kept secret for decades..For myself, I would just as soon have a NIB Manurhin as a Walther cause I will be shooting and carrying it and the French one will be a little bit cheaper...In the end, I love all PP's, PPK's, & PPK/S's and they are always on my shopping list, which I might add is longer than my bank statement balance...

 

[MGMike]

The PP-series pistols "pre-produced" in France (from German forgings) were delivered to Ulm with the slides unmarked, soft and in the white. The front sight was drilled, and the slides were marked, heat-treated, polished and blued at Ulm. The reassembled pistols were inspected, function tested, test fired and proofed by the Germans. All of this entitled them under German law to be marked as W. German-made. Guns produced entirely by Manurhin were contractually not entitled to bear the Walther Banner trademark.

Later on, in the late 80s, Walther began making them from scratch. They were not as good as the earlier joint-effort guns.

M