[Andyd_is_PzGren]

While my great uncle had shot a man with a 7,65 Browning in the riots in Germany in the early 1920s when he was defending himself from a mob of violent intruders, it has to be noted, that the mob carried no firearms. Once you face an armed opponent close up and dirty marksmanship takes a back seat to speed.

I lived in a country that has the highest travel advisory warning that the U.S. issues; do not travel. It has a higher kidnapping rate than Mexico City and I had friends and family kidnapped. Even my wife, a very peaceful and non-violent person, had been in two firefights and barely escaped two kidnapping attempts.

As a teenager I was very successful in martial arts and made the national team, I also was chosen to sight the P1s in for my military unit everytime we went shooting. In Indiana I learnt to shoot for speed and had a serious falling plate addiction. In those days I fired over 3,500 rounds each month.

From my personal experience, I opt to choose the most effective caliber and firepower combo available, especially when facing several armed opponents. Even with only one opponent it is important to incapacitate him speedily. What good is it to you, if you hit him with a lethal shot with a .22 l.r. and he can empty a whole mag of 9mm FMJ into you?

However, warfare is different. It is not paramount to kill the enemy soldier but to get him out of the fight and a wounded soldier will be binding up more men that will help him to get to a field hospital.

My son had one patient coming into the E.R. that was shot with a .22 l.r. and being fully responsive. He got the healthy and strong young woman into surgery and was surprised when the surgeon told him that she did not survive surgery. The bullet had pierced the spleen.

On the other hand, many patients had come in with bullet wounds from 9mm and .40 S&W and survived. Most criminals use FMJ, leading to much less tissue damage and considerably less shock.

Completely off topic but when my son had told me that, it had left quite an impression. A gang member had a couple of torso hits and went into emergency surgery. His heart stopped already in the E.R. but my son jump started it. It stopped again during surgery and the heart surgeon took the heart in his hand and pumped it to get it going.

My son told me that he finds gun shot wounds and the mortality unpredictable.

 

[halfmoonclip]

The biggest issue of .22 use in, handguns, for anything serious, is the round itself.
Rimfires are more prone to misfires than centerfire calibers, and a long, rimmed round, from the 19th Century, is less than ideal feeding through a pistol.
Gave my daughter a Smith .22 revolver as her 'lock box' gun, she wasn't inclined to practice enough with a .38 version. A revo solves that reliability issue; just pull the trigger again.
BTW, it was rumored that Browning saw the .25 as a rimless, centerfire .22 alternative for small pistols.
Moon

 

[PERA]

I have a new Walther PPK ulm, and it is my constant companion at the range.
When I acquired it I had reliability difficulties that thanks to the help I received in this Walther Forum, I was able to overcome, after cleaning the gun well again, mirror polishing the access ramp to the chamber, making sure to place the cartridges correctly in the magazine and use quality ammunition (CCI Mini Mag and others), it never fails me, and I can affirm that it is 100% reliable and extremely accurate. In doing my job, I have occasionally gotten 2-inch groups at 25 yards. That's more than excellent for such a small weapon.

# I consider the 22 LR bullet effective and useful in real uses.
I frequently read opinions in which the 22 LR ammunition is disparaged, considering it a "toy" ammunition, when in general it is lethal and effective.

# It is true that quality 22 LR ammunition has a failure due to the reemfire system of approximately 1 in five hundred or one thousand in high quality ammunition. Something that does not happen with central fire ammunition, which is much more reliable. But in favor of the 22 LR ammunition. There is always fresh, quality ammunition available, at least in my region. What does not always happen with calibers 6, 35 mm (25 ACP) and 7.65 mm (32 ACP) because they have little consumption and are very expensive to be anemic cartridges, they cost the same as a 9 mm Parabellum cartridge. So those who have pistols of those small calibers usually do not shoot them or do so little due to the cost of the ammunition. Therefore, it is not uncommon to buy old stocks that raise doubts about reliability, because they are old ammunition. On the other hand, the 22 LR caliber. It is so affordable and available that you can practice and practice without affecting your pocketbook and that includes practicing how to quickly save FTE and chamber a new cartridge again and continue firing.
In addition, the range of brands and types of ammunition is so wide that it is part of the fun to experiment.

# Thanks to the important contributions of the WALTHER FORUM that collaborated, I have managed to compile historical facts that I publish below, which attest that the Walther PPK pistol IN CALIBER 22 LR. It was chosen and used successfully by different Police Agencies and Military Security Officers of the most belligerent countries in the world since and during World War II, during the Cold War and unfortunate attacks, leaving the 22 LR, very far from being a round " unreliable" toy.

* Walther PPK, in caliber 22 LR, were manufactured during World War II, strong historical indications that SS and Secret Police officers of the German Third Reich used them.

* Swissair air officers used the Walther PPK exclusively in .22lr caliber so as not to take too much risk in case of a flight mission. It was feared that larger calibers could seriously endanger the stability of an aircraft.

* Mossad agents used Walther PPK and Beretta 71 pistols, caliber 22 LR, for the executions.

* The 22 LR caliber is a very desirable caliber that fulfills the function of self-protection, ammunition that is easy to obtain, light to carry, easy to shoot, cheap to practice, silent and extremely accurate.

• The British purchased a batch of 3000 thousand Walhter PP 22lr pistols and issued them to part-time soldiers of the UDR (Ulster Defense Regiment) and part-time police officers of the RUC (Royal Ulster Constabulary). For personal protection when out of service.
• Indications that the CIA used Walthers PPK and TPH for special work

*Senator Robert Kenedy, sadly, was murdered by a Jordanian born in Jerusalem with a .22 LR caliber revolver, Iver-Johnson Cadet.

* Attempted assassination of United States President Ronald Reagan, three bodyguards, including his driver, were put out of action and President Reagan himself was wounded by a neo-Nazi fanatic. A ricochet from the projectile hit the president in the chest, wounding him. The aggressor fired six shots in three seconds, with a Röhm RG-14 caliber .22 LR revolver, leaving three of his bodyguards injured and out of action, including his driver, and Reagan himself was wounded in the chest by a projectile rebound. .

*Indications that the Secret Services of all countries frequently used the 22 LR bullet when making incursions into enemy territory, since it is a bullet that is easy to obtain everywhere, very popular, even in times of the Cold War it was even freely available sale in many, and it was impossible to trace a projectile found in a victim. In addition to making little noise compared to other calibers.

I hope, grateful for more valuable opinions, without which it would not have been possible to carry out this historical investigation of the Walther PPK in caliber 22 LR and the effectiveness of the 22 LR projectile. as a cartridge used in real situations.

Thank you

 

[Palma8058]

**No clue Pera what you are saying in Italian. Great you post Italian as it tickles me……. …anyhow I took the liberty with my friend Google to post the translation.

Google translation of Pera post above:
We even know that a major production of Walther PPK in caliber 22 LR occurred when the Russians were already too close to the factory. So I find it very interesting and I don't have the answer as to what is the reason for producing such a volume of Walther PPK cal 22 LR in difficult times of war. Doesn't seem like a caliber that SS officers would use, does it?
Or maybe they were given to handcuffs to defend themselves from the Russian invader?
Another fact that also catches my attention in the use of the PP Series, in 22 LR caliber, is during the Cold War, the contract for 3,000 Walther PP pistols, which were issued in that caliber, for the M16 agents who operated in the North. Ireland. The use of these pistols was so that the agents would have a personal defense weapon when they left the agency heading to their homes.
I ask the generous experts for their help and valuable opinion.
Thank you.
ppk 22 LR issued in wartime. Why in that caliber and for what?

AMP comment: My 2 cents are .22 is a very desirable caliber that gets the job done for self protection, ammo easy to get, light to carry, easy to shoot, cheap to practice with and accurate as heck…….I carry both .22 and .25 when I am in ”relax at home” or summer light dressing mode”. Self defense means just that (for me), the goal is to break contact not to eradicate or vaporize. Also in that time era .22 was more than enough in civilized Europe……these days in our world things are different as everybody is preparing for ZOMBIE invasion.

thanks for the translation. Interesting post by Pera, didn't know that, thank you

 

[KDKSAIL]

>>...On the other hand, the 22 LR caliber. It is so affordable and available that you can practice and practice without affecting your pocketbook and that includes practicing how to quickly save FTE and chamber a new cartridge again and continue firing...<<<

This is the NOT-so-minor detail that's far too oiften overlooked... with ANY self-defense pistol...in ANY caliber. The average citizens goes out and purchases a firearm for self-defense/protection and for the most part, it remains in the box it came home from the gun shop packed in or sits '..somewhere safe..'...perhaps taken to a range every once in a long while to fire a few rounds, broght home, perhaps cleand & lubed and goes back in the box or 'safe place' for more months on end. What many forget is that it is a '..tool..' like any other....and '..use/PRACTICE makes master..'.

A weapon for self-defense/personal security is no more effective than a vase of silk flowers if ya' don't familiarize yourself with it's use and operation and PRACTICE....PRACTICE...PRACTICE !!!

 

[Palma8058]

I have a new Walther PPK ulm, and it is my constant companion at the range.
When I acquired it I had reliability difficulties that thanks to the help I received in this Walther Forum, I was able to overcome, after cleaning the gun well again, mirror polishing the access ramp to the chamber, making sure to place the cartridges correctly in the magazine and use quality ammunition (CCI Mini Mag and others), it never fails me, and I can affirm that it is 100% reliable and extremely accurate. In doing my job, I have occasionally gotten 2-inch groups at 25 yards. That's more than excellent for such a small weapon.

# I consider the 22 LR bullet effective and useful in real uses.
I frequently read opinions in which the 22 LR ammunition is disparaged, considering it a "toy" ammunition, when in general it is lethal and effective.

# It is true that quality 22 LR ammunition has a failure due to the reemfire system of approximately 1 in five hundred or one thousand in high quality ammunition. Something that does not happen with central fire ammunition, which is much more reliable. But in favor of the 22 LR ammunition. There is always fresh, quality ammunition available, at least in my region. What does not always happen with calibers 6, 35 mm (25 ACP) and 7.65 mm (32 ACP) because they have little consumption and are very expensive to be anemic cartridges, they cost the same as a 9 mm Parabellum cartridge. So those who have pistols of those small calibers usually do not shoot them or do so little due to the cost of the ammunition. Therefore, it is not uncommon to buy old stocks that raise doubts about reliability, because they are old ammunition. On the other hand, the 22 LR caliber. It is so affordable and available that you can practice and practice without affecting your pocketbook and that includes practicing how to quickly save FTE and chamber a new cartridge again and continue firing.
In addition, the range of brands and types of ammunition is so wide that it is part of the fun to experiment.

# Thanks to the important contributions of the WALTHER FORUM that collaborated, I have managed to compile historical facts that I publish below, which attest that the Walther PPK pistol IN CALIBER 22 LR. It was chosen and used successfully by different Police Agencies and Military Security Officers of the most belligerent countries in the world since and during World War II, during the Cold War and unfortunate attacks, leaving the 22 LR, very far from being a round " unreliable" toy.

* Walther PPK, in caliber 22 LR, were manufactured during World War II, strong historical indications that SS and Secret Police officers of the German Third Reich used them.

* Swissair air officers used the Walther PPK exclusively in .22lr caliber so as not to take too much risk in case of a flight mission. It was feared that larger calibers could seriously endanger the stability of an aircraft.

* Mossad agents used Walther PPK and Beretta 71 pistols, caliber 22 LR, for the executions.

* The 22 LR caliber is a very desirable caliber that fulfills the function of self-protection, ammunition that is easy to obtain, light to carry, easy to shoot, cheap to practice, silent and extremely accurate.

• The British purchased a batch of 3000 thousand Walhter PP 22lr pistols and issued them to part-time soldiers of the UDR (Ulster Defense Regiment) and part-time police officers of the RUC (Royal Ulster Constabulary). For personal protection when out of service.
• Indications that the CIA used Walthers PPK and TPH for special work

*Senator Robert Kenedy, sadly, was murdered by a Jordanian born in Jerusalem with a .22 LR caliber revolver, Iver-Johnson Cadet.

* Attempted assassination of United States President Ronald Reagan, three bodyguards, including his driver, were put out of action and President Reagan himself was wounded by a neo-Nazi fanatic. A ricochet from the projectile hit the president in the chest, wounding him. The aggressor fired six shots in three seconds, with a Röhm RG-14 caliber .22 LR revolver, leaving three of his bodyguards injured and out of action, including his driver, and Reagan himself was wounded in the chest by a projectile rebound. .

*Indications that the Secret Services of all countries frequently used the 22 LR bullet when making incursions into enemy territory, since it is a bullet that is easy to obtain everywhere, very popular, even in times of the Cold War it was even freely available sale in many, and it was impossible to trace a projectile found in a victim. In addition to making little noise compared to other calibers.

I hope, grateful for more valuable opinions, without which it would not have been possible to carry out this historical investigation of the Walther PPK in caliber 22 LR and the effectiveness of the 22 LR projectile. as a cartridge used in real situations.

Thank you View attachment 113299 View attachment 113299

Thank you Pera for all that great information. You gave me a lot to think about. I just recently acquired a PPK/S 22lr, and just joined the forum. I'm grateful to all of you for the help . I hope that I may help someone with something some day

 

[Poloberst]

I have a new Walther PPK ulm, and it is my constant companion at the range………….

Thanks to the important contributions of the WALTHER FORUM that collaborated, I have managed to compile historical facts that I publish below, …….

* Walther PPK, in caliber 22 LR, were manufactured during World War II, strong historical indications that SS and Secret Police officers of the German Third Reich used them.
…………..
Thank you

What historical facts or indicationscan you provide to substatiate your statement that TR SS and Secret Police(SIPO/RSHA) used .22 cal PPKs? Arsenal inventory cards from the RSHA arsenal indicate the only Walther pistols issued to officers were 7,65mm though some 6,35mm were issued as backup. Some P08s are listed. No 5,6mm pisols were ever issued nor mentioned in their pistol service manual.

 

[Palma8058]

There is a new wound ballistic expert born every day who has never been in a firefight.

I lived in a not-so-nice country in the Third World and have seen people still being mobile after being hit with many 9mm FMJ rounds. Two guys changing local currency to U.S. $ were shot around the corner of our business and ran to our store because we had armed security guards. My wife knew the two guys and tried to give first aid to one of them. She counted 13 hits (not being sure what was an entry or exit wound) and the guys still ran over 200 feet. Both bled out within minutes.

My son is a Dallas cop and has seen as many bullet wounds and his older brother who is an E.R. doc and spent some time in beautiful Cleveland clinic. They have tried to help gun shot victims survive and both agree that lethality is unexpected and often unpredictable but stopping power is more predictable.

Dream on about the .22 l.r. or 7,65 Browning carrying you through dire times! There may be a rude awakening.

My son's alarm went off yesterday and I went to investigate with my trusty old Remington 870 with OO. I know what OO can do at ranges out to 70 feet.

If your a good shot, all you need to do is aim for the brain. Don't you think that would put anyone down , even with a 22

 

[PERA]

Dear Poloberts, Hello, first of all I will tell you that I do not have time to argue. That said, with pleasure what in my opinion are strong indications, suspicions, that Walther PPK cal 22 LR pistols were used by Trird Reich Officers:

1) During the last period of war, 300 units of PPK in 22 LR caliber were manufactured.

2) What would be the reason that would explain that having the Allies at the gates of the factory, with it being under siege and Allied bombing, they began to manufacture PPK in 22 LR caliber? Surely they were not to be sold to the civilian market, much less export it.
TRUE?

3) I had the opportunity to see Walthers PPK cal 22 LR. with numbers from the war period with their respective original numbered officers' leather cartridge belts.

4) The pistols carried by the SS officers of the Third Reich were a decorative item of command symbol. In fact, carrying a PPK, whether in caliber 7, 65 mm or 9mm Kurtz, is ridiculous to try to defend yourself on the battlefront. Even more than the Germans, they had in their arsenal better pistols for battle and personal defense, such as Walther P 38 and Lugers in the excellent 9mm Parabellum and 7.65 Parabellum calibers.

5) The secret services of Mossad, the CIA and even English services stationed in Northern Ireland after the war used Walher PPK and PP pistols in 22 LR caliber. with demonstrated success, so why couldn't the SS have used them. ?

6) A forum member also provided elements that suggested that the SS could have used them in the Nazi concentration camps, in their inhuman and infamous extermination activities so as not to alert the rest of the Jews and perhaps avoid a massive uprising. due to the low noise when the 22 LR ammunition detonates.

Certainties, in history, are difficult to have, a lot of information is lost in the passing of time. Maximum after a war. Even more so when we are referring to the losers. I think you will agree with me that history is written by those who won.

I await comments.
Kind regards.
Alejandro Pera

 

[kwill]

Lots of speculation, "logic" and unsubstantiated assertions within this thread, which is fun, but none of it really moves the historical argument forward.

 

[PERA]

Estimado, mi amigo Carlos Fava, coleccionista y estudioso de la historia, habló sobre este tema, y me hizo notar un detalle no menor que había pasado desapercibido y creo que aporta a nuestro tema, y es que todas las pistolas Walther PPK en calibre 22 LR salidas de fábrica en el último periodo de producción, están muy bien terminadas, lo que no coincide con el acabado tosco de finales de la época. Como sabemos, el acabado tosco e incluso hecho de diferentes piezas (Frankenstein) y hasta mal acuñado de las Walther P 38 de finales de la época. lo cual es lógico dado que la fábrica estaba sitiada y bombardeada y la situación era desesperada.
Lo que seguramente explica el buen acabado y ajuste de esas 300 Walther PPK cal. 22 LR es que fueron fabricadas con anterioridad; y muy posiblemente estuvieron en el almacén de la fábrica y salieron de ella en los últimos meses antes de que fuera destruida.
No hay duda de que abandonaron la fábrica en los últimos meses al final de la Segunda Guerra Mundial, porque así consta en los anales y registros de la fábrica Walthers.
Creemos que este detalle aporta algo más a nuestra investigación.
Agradezco a Carlos Fava por su aportación.

El siguiente enlace muestra un PPK 22 lr. de finales de período donde se aprecia la buena terminación.

Rare Late WWII Nazi Walther PPK in 22LR

Rare Late WWII Nazi Walther PPK in 22LRThis is an extremely rare very late WWII production Walther PPK chambered in the very desirable 22LR. At the time when the German war machine was struggling to keep pace with supplying the necessary war materials, the Walther factory produced approximately...

www.rockislandauction.com

 

[PERA]

Dear, my friend Carlos Fava, a collector and student of history, talked about this topic, and he made me notice a no small detail that had gone unnoticed and I believe adds to our topic, and that is that all Walther PPK pistols in 22 LR cal . factory outputs in the last production period, are very well finished, which does not match the rough finishing at the end of the period. As we know, the rough finish and even made of different parts (Frankenstein) and even poorly minted of the Walther P 38 from the end of the period. which is logical given that the factory was under siege and bombed and the situation was desperate.
What surely explains the good finish and fit of those 300 Walther PPK cal 22 LR is that they were manufactured before; and very possibly they were lying in the factory warehouse and left the factory in the last months before it was destroyed.
There is no doubt that they left the factory in the last months at the end of World War II, because this is stated in the annals and records of the Walthers factory.
This detail, we believe, adds to our investigation.
I thank Carlos Fava for his contribution.

 

[PERA]

Lots of speculation, "logic" and unsubstantiated assertions within this thread, which is fun, but none of it really moves the historical argument forward.

Lots of speculation, "logic" and unsubstantiated assertions within this thread, which is fun, but none of it really moves the historical argument forward.

clear









589 / 5.000

You may say that you do not agree or that there are not enough arguments for you, you do not have to agree, that does not worry me nor does it seem bad to me. What is wrong, and I emphatically tell you so, seems to me to be an expression out of place and in bad taste, to say that these are unfounded statements. I believe that everything that has been stated here has been substantiated. If the above grounds are not enough for you, that is your right. But his expression is offensive, saying that they are unfounded statements and do not conform to what I have expressed, nor to the facts presented. greetings

 

[halfmoonclip]

Okay, gang, let's turn it down a notch. We generally disagree agreeably here.
Moon

 

[Poloberst]

Lots of speculation, "logic" and unsubstantiated assertions within this thread, which is fun, but none of it really moves the historical argument forward.

Dear Poloberts, Hello, first of all I will tell you that I do not have time to argue. That said, with pleasure what in my opinion are strong indications, suspicions, that Walther PPK cal 22 LR pistols were used by Trird Reich Officers:

1) During the last period of war, 300 units of PPK in 22 LR caliber were manufactured.

2) What would be the reason that would explain that having the Allies at the gates of the factory, with it being under siege and Allied bombing, they began to manufacture PPK in 22 LR caliber? Surely they were not to be sold to the civilian market, much less export it.
TRUE?

3) I had the opportunity to see Walthers PPK cal 22 LR. with numbers from the war period with their respective original numbered officers' leather cartridge belts.

4) The pistols carried by the SS officers of the Third Reich were a decorative item of command symbol. In fact, carrying a PPK, whether in caliber 7, 65 mm or 9mm Kurtz, is ridiculous to try to defend yourself on the battlefront. Even more than the Germans, they had in their arsenal better pistols for battle and personal defense, such as Walther P 38 and Lugers in the excellent 9mm Parabellum and 7.65 Parabellum calibers.

5) The secret services of Mossad, the CIA and even English services stationed in Northern Ireland after the war used Walher PPK and PP pistols in 22 LR caliber. with demonstrated success, so why couldn't the SS have used them. ?

6) A forum member also provided elements that suggested that the SS could have used them in the Nazi concentration camps, in their inhuman and infamous extermination activities so as not to alert the rest of the Jews and perhaps avoid a massive uprising. due to the low noise when the 22 LR ammunition detonates.

Certainties, in history, are difficult to have, a lot of information is lost in the passing of time. Maximum after a war. Even more so when we are referring to the losers. I think you will agree with me that history is written by those who won.

I await comments.
Kind regards.
Alejandro Pera

Dear Alejandro

I do not consider our discussion arguing, but instead, debating. When I make comments on these forums they are based on facts found in my archive assembled over fifty years of collecting: original Third Reich Runderlassen of the Min of Interior and Chef d. deutschen Polizei, police weapons manuals, microfilm rolls of from NARA of Captured German Records, original catalogs of Walther, Akah, Geco, the list goes on. I was a major contributor to the three volumes of Jan Still as well as other books and magazines over the years.

1) 300 PPKs produced in the last years of the war? So what. In my collection was a Walther Model 1 semi auto rifle in .22 cqliber presented in June 1944 as a birthday present to a senior staff officer at the Motor Police School outside Suhl. Walther still produced .22s in the war. They were used for pleasure and training purposes.

2) The 90 Inf Div and 11 Armored Div captured the main Walther factory in the first day of April 1945. There were five Walther factories in Z-M and Wassungen, producing rifles and pistols. No bombing occured according to my understanding. Producting of .22s continued in 1944 and probably stopped after the Rhine was crossed.

3) I have Walther PPs in numbered issue boxes for the Reichsbank. I have never seen a German military, police or commercial issue holster serial numbered to a Walther PP or PPK in .22 caliber. Did you happen to keep notes on serial nunbers and/or photographs. Otherwise, your report is hear-say.

4) Shortly after the war started, a directive was issued by the RFSSuChdDtPol that all senior non-coms and officers would only be issued 7,65mm pistols. P08s were designated for frontline police in the forming police batallions/regiments. Those police serving in the Old Reich carried a mixture of P08s or 7,65mm. Members of the Gestapo and Kripo were issued 7,65mm pistol of Walther make or those older issue 7,65mm pistols such as Dreyse, Sauer and Mauser. This statement is supported by factual evidenc of RSHA arsenal issue cards, pistol manuals of the Order Police and Security Police. We are not taking about SS officers of the Waffen SS who faced the onslaught of US, British/Canadian,French and Russian forces. We are talking about SS officers who were solving crimes and commanding EG in Russian. Their subordinates carried out the murders with higher caliber weapons, but we have postcards showing the EG SS officers wearing Walther PPs.

5) What post war security forces did with Walther pistols is irrelevant to the discussion. Talk facts, not supposition.

6) The suggestion that .22 Walther PPs were used in KL executions is in fact hear-say. No elements of facts were provided with the comment in another thread. The "story" began several years ago when a Walther PP in .22 was purported to have been taken from the Dachau KL. The fabricated story began with that "discovery". Provide some evidence instead of hear-say.

I look forward to your considered response.

Joe

 

[PERA]

Dear Alejandro

I do not consider our discussion arguing, but instead, debating. When I make comments on these forums they are based on facts found in my archive assembled over fifty years of collecting: original Third Reich Runderlassen of the Min of Interior and Chef d. deutschen Polizei, police weapons manuals, microfilm rolls of from NARA of Captured German Records, original catalogs of Walther, Akah, Geco, the list goes on. I was a major contributor to the three volumes of Jan Still as well as other books and magazines over the years.

1) 300 PPKs produced in the last years of the war? So what. In my collection was a Walther Model 1 semi auto rifle in .22 cqliber presented in June 1944 as a birthday present to a senior staff officer at the Motor Police School outside Suhl. Walther still produced .22s in the war. They were used for pleasure and training purposes.

2) The 90 Inf Div and 11 Armored Div captured the main Walther factory in the first day of April 1945. There were five Walther factories in Z-M and Wassungen, producing rifles and pistols. No bombing occured according to my understanding. Producting of .22s continued in 1944 and probably stopped after the Rhine was crossed.

3) I have Walther PPs in numbered issue boxes for the Reichsbank. I have never seen a German military, police or commercial issue holster serial numbered to a Walther PP or PPK in .22 caliber. Did you happen to keep notes on serial nunbers and/or photographs. Otherwise, your report is hear-say.

4) Shortly after the war started, a directive was issued by the RFSSuChdDtPol that all senior non-coms and officers would only be issued 7,65mm pistols. P08s were designated for frontline police in the forming police batallions/regiments. Those police serving in the Old Reich carried a mixture of P08s or 7,65mm. Members of the Gestapo and Kripo were issued 7,65mm pistol of Walther make or those older issue 7,65mm pistols such as Dreyse, Sauer and Mauser. This statement is supported by factual evidenc of RSHA arsenal issue cards, pistol manuals of the Order Police and Security Police. We are not taking about SS officers of the Waffen SS who faced the onslaught of US, British/Canadian,French and Russian forces. We are talking about SS officers who were solving crimes and commanding EG in Russian. Their subordinates carried out the murders with higher caliber weapons, but we have postcards showing the EG SS officers wearing Walther PPs.

5) What post war security forces did with Walther pistols is irrelevant to the discussion. Talk facts, not supposition.

6) The suggestion that .22 Walther PPs were used in KL executions is in fact hear-say. No elements of facts were provided with the comment in another thread. The "story" began several years ago when a Walther PP in .22 was purported to have been taken from the Dachau KL. The fabricated story began with that "discovery". Provide some evidence instead of hear-say.

I look forward to your considered response.

Joe

Dear Joe, thank you for your contributions, they have enriched our research in this thread.

The fact that you have in your possession documents showing that "...shortly after the war began, the RFSSuChdDtPol issued a directive that all non-commissioned officers and senior officers would only be issued with 7.65 mm pistols..." It does not invalidate or prove that they could not use pistols or weapons of other calibers.

Furthermore, that order that mentions that they were given nothing says that they were prohibited from using and carrying the same model in other calibers. In fact, it was a common practice among officers to buy their own pistol for personal use. Especially the Walther PPK.

Hermann Göring himself used to carry a weapon manufactured by an enemy country like the United States, and in a caliber that was obviously not the 7.65 mm. Which is documented in countless documentaries, films and photos of the time. A Smith & Wesson model 1905 revolver, Hand Ejector, caliber 38 Spl.

You tell us that 22 LR caliber weapons were produced by Walther during the war period. This is a proven fact.

But then you state something that we would like you to prove to us and that is that they were used only for recreational and practice use during the entire war period. It does not seem reasonable that at the end of the war, when the Third Reich was falling apart, when its capital Berlin was being bombed and the situation was desperate. The Germans were going to manufacture 300 Walther PPK 22 LR pistols for "recreational and practice use," don't you think Joe? To think that would be to not consider the historical context, a mistake that no scientific researcher can make and it would also be to underestimate the Germans and their intelligence, something that I do not do, on the contrary I believe that Germany had one of the best armies in the world, at those moments. If it is as you claim, it would not be surprising if they lost the war. You have no evidence of this, and your answer is as speculative as mine. What if mine for my way of thinking is a "logical" answer as you qualified my answer.

As incredible as it may seem, in the last days of the Third Reich, anxious people and children belonging to the Hitler Youth fought block by block. Many of them were not older than 12 years, it would be logical that some of those Walther PPK cal 22 LR. They could have been used by those children recognized by Hitler himself for their bravery within hours of his death, as recorded in films of the time. Or even by anxious people with arthritis and osteoarthritis who are forced to use another caliber or women to avoid being raped by Russian soldiers. In other words, in the last months of the war, those Walther PPK cal 22 LR could have had any defensive use, anything except "recreational and practical."

But hey, Joe, thanks for disagreeing, that's how you build knowledge, in healthy debate.

Best regard
Alejandro

 

[PERA]

joe alias "Poloberts" , It would be nice to know your last name and your nationality.
Saludos,
Alejandro

 

[Poloberst]

Dear Joe, thank you for your contributions, they have enriched our research in this thread.

The fact that you have in your possession documents showing that "...shortly after the war began, the RFSSuChdDtPol issued a directive that all non-commissioned officers and senior officers would only be issued with 7.65 mm pistols..." It does not invalidate or prove that they could not use pistols or weapons of other calibers.

Furthermore, that order that mentions that they were given nothing says that they were prohibited from using and carrying the same model in other calibers. In fact, it was a common practice among officers to buy their own pistol for personal use. Especially the Walther PPK.

Hermann Göring himself used to carry a weapon manufactured by an enemy country like the United States, and in a caliber that was obviously not the 7.65 mm. Which is documented in countless documentaries, films and photos of the time. A Smith & Wesson model 1905 revolver, Hand Ejector, caliber 38 Spl.

You tell us that 22 LR caliber weapons were produced by Walther during the war period. This is a proven fact.

But then you state something that we would like you to prove to us and that is that they were used only for recreational and practice use during the entire war period. It does not seem reasonable that at the end of the war, when the Third Reich was falling apart, when its capital Berlin was being bombed and the situation was desperate. The Germans were going to manufacture 300 Walther PPK 22 LR pistols for "recreational and practice use," don't you think Joe? To think that would be to not consider the historical context, a mistake that no scientific researcher can make and it would also be to underestimate the Germans and their intelligence, something that I do not do, on the contrary I believe that Germany had one of the best armies in the world, at those moments. If it is as you claim, it would not be surprising if they lost the war. You have no evidence of this, and your answer is as speculative as mine. What if mine for my way of thinking is a "logical" answer as you qualified my answer.

As incredible as it may seem, in the last days of the Third Reich, anxious people and children belonging to the Hitler Youth fought block by block. Many of them were not older than 12 years, it would be logical that some of those Walther PPK cal 22 LR. They could have been used by those children recognized by Hitler himself for their bravery within hours of his death, as recorded in films of the time. Or even by anxious people with arthritis and osteoarthritis who are forced to use another caliber or women to avoid being raped by Russian soldiers. In other words, in the last months of the war, those Walther PPK cal 22 LR could have had any defensive use, anything except "recreational and practical."

But hey, Joe, thanks for disagreeing, that's how you build knowledge, in healthy debate.

Best regard
Alejandro

Dear Alejandro

It is good to carry on a stimulating discussion from which all can perhaps learn.

I only mentioned the early war decree of the poiice about 7,65mm pistols to counter your statement that "The pistols carried by the SS officers of the Third Reich were a decorative item of command symbol. In fact, carrying a PPK, whether in caliber 7, 65 mm or 9mm Kurtz, is ridiculous to try to defend yourself on the battlefront." Pistols in 7,65mm were a standard issue for police, both officers and senior non-commissioned officers serving in the uniformed and security police within the Reich. I wrote larger caliber weapons were used by members of the Waffen SS in combat. And even larger caliber weapons were issued to members of the Security Police as a inventory card of the RSHA arsenal shows that the commander of the Gestapo, Heinrich Müller, was issued an sub-machine gun in 9mm caliber. And it is true as you wrote, that officers could and did purchase their own sidearms. Military officers were required to do that.

I did not write, as you wrote above, that the Walther PPs and PPKs in .22 lr. "...were used only for recreational and practice use during the entire war period." You began this thread with the question, "PPK 22 LR issued in wartime. Why in that caliber and for what ?" I replied that the pistols were advertised by Walther for the purpose I mentioned and that a .22 rifle was sold as a gift in the summer of 1944. For what purpose those last PPKs were produced by Walther remains a mystery. As you wrote, by April 1945 eastern Germany faced the onslaught of the Soviet armies and the Allied armies had penetrated deep into western Germany. But while Berliners faced disaster, Zella-Mehlis was surrendered without damage. Many Germany cities were destroyed, yet some survived as did the people. Did the .22 go to arm the young HJ defending Berlin or the women fearing the arrival of the Russians? I would think the HJ were armed with Panzerfausts and the ladies were lucky if they had a firearm, as a puchase permit was required for them to own a pistol. In the last days, perhaps those .22s were used as you suggested, or not. It is all supposition.

It is always a pleasure to discuss history with you.

Joe

 

[kwill]

It is all supposition.

This was the exact point I was trying to make without intent to offend.

 

[Poloberst]

This was the exact point I was trying to make without intent to offend.

Kwill, I’m certainly not offended, but other than my supposition about what happened with those late .22 Walthers in the last month of the war, I believe all my comments were substantiated. What of my contribution did you consider supposition?

But I might add this piece of paperwork that was included with an early production Reichsbank Walther .22 PP training pistol. The two papers are the maintenance and testing cards for the pistol. You can see that this training pistol was in service until February 1945 when captured by US forces. So we see .22 pistols still remained a part of German business life until the end.