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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I understand the PP and the PPK/S are made on the same frame. Is there any real difference between the two?
 

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Same grip frame, but the PP has a longer sight radius than the PPK/s.
The PPK/s was an expedient to import the Walther guns into the US when they were banned based on their dimensions. Too-tiny guns were baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad.
The PP is blessed with more mass in its longer slide as well as more sight radius.
Moon
 
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For the reason cited by Halfmoonclip, the PPK/S is basically a PPK barrel and slide mounted upon a PP frame. Here are the relevant dimensions.

PP Barrel: 3.9 inches
PPK/S or PPK Barrel: 3.3 inches

PP Length: 6.7 inches
PPK/S or PPK Length: 6.1 inches

PP or PPK/S Height: 4.3 inches
PPK Height: 3.9 inches

One final item: As the PP and PPK/S both share the same basic frame, both have a full metal back strap and side-mounted plastic grips. The PPK has no metal back strap. Instead, the PPK has wrap-around plastic grips that join together in the back of the butt.

From a blog I did on the subject (link here):



 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thank you Gentlemen. I knew I would get answers from this great forum.
 

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Just one more thought. If you're concerned about concealment, the PPK is a little easier. If you like to shoot...the PPK/S should be considered and it will feel just like your PP and accept the same magazines as well.
 

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Or if you want more power with less recoil, choose the PP.

The longer barrel of the PP usually pays greater dividends than the difference between standard ammo and +P. And the added weight at the muzzle gives less recoil and more stability.

M
 

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Or if you want more power with less recoil, choose the PP.

The longer barrel of the PP usually pays greater dividends than the difference between standard ammo and +P. And the added weight at the muzzle gives less recoil and more stability.

M
Mike, any firmly held opinions about the differences in reliability between the two barrel lengths, assuming .380 caliber? You've already noted that the PP length slide gives less perceived recoil; I'd concur.
Moon
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I have a 1965 PP and want to get a PPK. I have always discounted the PPK/S because I thought it was just a later model PP. Now I am intrigued and might have to put it on my wish list.
 

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Mike, any firmly held opinions about the differences in reliability between the two barrel lengths, assuming .380 caliber? You've already noted that the PP length slide gives less perceived recoil; I'd concur.
Moon
No opinion worth expressing. One would have to fire and record thousands of rounds through many pairs of each model to get a statistically valid comparison free of any influence of better or worse performance from an individual gun.

That sort of shooting usually is done only in factory or military testing. That long-term observation was, for example, what led to the repositioning of the extractor in the SIG/Sauer P232 from the P230.

M
 

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One would have to fire and record thousands of rounds through many pairs of each model to get a statistically valid comparison free of any influence of better or worse performance from an individual gun.
Nahhhh - that's too much work... Just look it up on Wikipedia. They have all the answers!
 

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Looks boys.....looks. I realize beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but some of us just prefer the looks of the PPK, or PPK/S over the PP. I think the PP says...."I am a Nazi Po-Lease and I am here to shoot you". The PPK says...."hey....I was in some James Bond movies once and my cousin killed Adolf".
 

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No opinion worth expressing. One would have to fire and record thousands of rounds through many pairs of each model to get a statistically valid comparison free of any influence of better or worse performance from an individual gun.
M
Mike, I'd have settled for a Whiskey Alpha Gulf or at least a subjective impression.
Just wondering if the added mass of the PP slide might temper the excess slide velocity of the 'K' slide. I've not fired the .380 PP myself, but it seems a heavier slide would be a help.
Guess I'll have to check Wikipedia...
Moon
 

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Mike, I'd have settled for a Whiskey Alpha Gulf or at least a subjective impression.
Just wondering if the added mass of the PP slide might temper the excess slide velocity of the 'K' slide. I've not fired the .380 PP myself, but it seems a heavier slide would be a help.
Guess I'll have to check Wikipedia...
Moon
Moon: You have raised an important point that occurred to me after I posted my last message above --that I should have qualified the term "recoil" by saying "perceived recoil". But I didn't edit it, as I figured --correctly--that somebody else would catch it and we could continue the discussion, and you did.

Normally adding weight to the slide --holding all else equal-- will reduce slide velocity and therefore the impact when the slide is halted and reversed. The difficulty here is that the PP also has a longer barrel, and produces more muzzle velocity and greater energy. Whether this is enough to cancel out the greater mass of the slide, I can't say. The bullet is in the bore longer, and the recoil we feel is as much a function of time & distance as of energy; plus the longer muzzle-end of the slide means that when the PP recoils, its CG stays more in front of my fist than behind it. Most important, for me at least: to the extent that our perception of recoil is accentuated by muzzle blast (in the .380 PPK and PPK/s it is truly nasty) the longer barrel of the PP tends to suppress it.

I have noticed that, compared to the more powerful 9mm P99 or P5 or P38, the .380 PPK/s has considerably more felt recoil --my arthritic hand is good judge of this.

I believe it is due to the blowback principle of operation, where the mass comes rearward very fast and unimpeded --coupled with a very short distance of travel before it slams to an abrupt halt, and then is slammed a second time when it is closed by the necessarily powerful spring.

Theoretically, a lot of this could be cancelled out by extending the slide travel, but the result would no longer be a pocket pistol. Some years ago there was a light machine gun, the Ultimax 100, designed in Singapore by an American, Jim Sullivan (who also did much of the design work on the AR10 and AR15 and Ruger's Mini-14) with a long receiver that simply allowed the recoiling mass to travel rearward against spring pressure until it ran out of energy (before the springs "went solid"), and then it would cycle. There was no buffer. I fired that gun, and it was exceptionally smooth with very little felt recoil.

I'm not a engineer, and I would welcome someone to explain the mysteries of energy vs. momentum, free recoil vs. felt recoil, etc. It would help me to better understand the dynamics.

As for Wikipedia, the internet's communal septic tank, my further thoughts are most recently expressed here: http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/classics/23055-9mm-luger-124-grain-115-grain.html#post191584.

M
 

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Mike, you raise a couple issues that I had not considered, particularly the increased MV in the longer barrel balancing the greater slide mass, and the more forward center of gravity.
That unpleasant perceived recoil in the 'K' always reminded me of smacking a rock with an iron bar for the ugly twang it creates.

The machine gun you cite; was it indeed a blowback weapon?
Have to assume the gun industry's affection for straight blowback designs is largely based on ease of production contrasted to more complex locked breech or delayed blowback types.
Over on Arfcom there is a lot of interest of late in blowback pistol caliber carbines based on the AR platform. Given enough room for a sufficiently heavy recoiling mass, they work really well, tho' there are proponents of a locked-breech version.
Moon
 

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The PP would also make a good concealed carry. Just to put it in perspective, here is a photo of my Kahr CM9 next to my Walther PP. The Kahr is one of the smallest concealed carry pistols. The PP is about the same thickness and not much bigger overall. http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/...3d1322700611-pp-got-little-brother-pp-cm9.jpg
That PP looks soooooo bloody sexy compared to that Kahr. I love the looks of both the PPK and the PP. The PP with that longer slide has something about it that really has class.....just my .02. I have to say that I didn't realize how comparable size-wise the Walthers were to the Kahrs. A bunch of guys at my station jumped on the Kahr wagon for awhile, but I've noticed that many of them have sold theirs. One of my buddies had alot of issues with his. The factory would bend over backwards to help him, but the bottom line was he didn't want it to go "click" when he needed it. There's alot to be said for 80+ years of design experience that the Walthers have.
 

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...

The machine gun you cite; was it indeed a blowback weapon?

Have to assume the gun industry's affection for straight blowback designs is largely based on ease of production contrasted to more complex locked breech or delayed blowback types.
...
Moon
Moon: No, the Ultimax, like most modern machine guns, was gas-operated and fully locked. A piston over the barrel actuated a rotating 7-lug bolt derived from the M16.

Straight blowback pistols make sense only in pocket pistol calibers of relatively low pressure and not too much rearward momentum, .380 ACP being about the maximum. They are uncomplicated and much less expensive to to produce. However, once chamber pressure gets up into the 25K+ range --9mm Para exceeds this considerably-- the brass cartridge case, being the weak link in the chain, may burst if the breech opens before the pressure drops. Keeping it closed for that brief moment without some sort of locking system requires either excessive mass or an impracticably strong spring. These are of concern in a pistol though not in an SMG. The only serious-caliber pistols that I know of that are a noteworthy exception to this general statement are the Astra 400 and 600 -- and one still needs very strong fingers to rack their slides. I am fond of these Astras for their ruggedness, simplicity and reliability, but I just can't cock them any longer.

M
 

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That PP looks soooooo bloody sexy compared to that Kahr. I love the looks of both the PPK and the PP. The PP with that longer slide has something about it that really has class.....just my .02. I have to say that I didn't realize how comparable size-wise the Walthers were to the Kahrs. A bunch of guys at my station jumped on the Kahr wagon for awhile, but I've noticed that many of them have sold theirs. One of my buddies had alot of issues with his. The factory would bend over backwards to help him, but the bottom line was he didn't want it to go "click" when he needed it. There's alot to be said for 80+ years of design experience that the Walthers have.

I love my Kahr, it's what I shoot most of the time. Have over a 1000rds thru it in the last 6 months. But it was hard to get used to that DAO trigger.

I would prefer to be shooting my Walther but it turns out it's somewhat rare. Only about 1100 of them were made for the Danish Federal police in 1941. So I semi retired it. Once my last kid's thru college and I have more financial resources, I plan to buy another older Walther PP that I can take to the range and shoot, a lot.

Also theirs no comparison in these guns. The Kahr is great, but snappy like most polymer frame compacts. The Walther PP is something else all together. It's just perfect. I'd have to say the Kahr vs. the Walther is like Salsa vs. Cavier.

Most people like the PPK Bond guns a little better, but I think the PP has a more balanced sexy look. To each his own.
 

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Straight blowback pistols make sense only in pocket pistol calibers of relatively low pressure and not too much rearward momentum, .380 ACP being about the maximum. They are uncomplicated and much less expensive to to produce. However, once chamber pressure gets up into the 25K+ range --9mm Para exceeds this considerably-- the brass cartridge case, being the weak link in the chain, may burst if the breech opens before the pressure drops. Keeping it closed for that brief moment without some sort of locking system requires either excessive mass or an impracticably strong spring.
Not at all disputing the general accuracy of your statement above, but I'll interject that the H&K P7 does manage, quite nicely, to pull it off with the 9mm cartridge...
 

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AMA, the P7 is gas retarded rather than gas operated; it's not straight blowback. It's also remarkably self compensating; my former boss claimed you could shoot .380s in them, and he was correct.
The whole squeeze-cocking thing was rather complex, but it surprises me that others have not tried the gas system, as it is relatively compact and doesn't appear to require tolerances tighter than an ordinary blowback gun, save for the cylinder itself.
Perhaps you meant the H&K VP70; it was reputedly pure blowback and quite bulky. The High Point pistols look like a paving brick with a pistol grip; don't know if they actually work, but they are annoyingly ugly, and blowback.

It's amazing how relatively small a locked breech pistol can be made to be; the Ruger in .380 as an example, and the Kimber Solo in 9mm is less than PPK size, tho' a bit thicker.

Mike, thanks for clarifying the machine gun example; I was picturing a blowback rifle with a bolt the size of an engine block...;)

John, there are abundant police turn-in PPs out there (in .32, a caliber a lot of us here prefer), and often at very reasonable prices. Abundant is relative, tho', they bring in a batch and then they're gone, but you can often find them at gunshows or auctions.
They will have a little holster wear, but the couple I've owned over the years have been mechanically flawless.
Moon
 
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