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Discussion Starter #101
'17, bring your camera to the range with you - I am sooooo rooting for your PP to run reliably! And yeah... bring your camera and shoot some video of your hand shooting that nice tight group (and not just punching holes through the paper with a pencil)! J/K - good shooting!

-Pilotsteve
The last three or four videos I have made will not load to Photobucket for some reason. I have now dropped the quality of the data in hopes that I can get them to load. Have several of shooting including the hammer follow and a couple with the grips off showing the function of the DA cocking lever, sear movement and hammer toe drop. They won't load though. Will have to try again.

Remington on the left, notice the sharp front edge of the case vs the rounded front edge of the Sellior B. Next is a spent PMC case and a 9mm all copper round that I haven't fired any of. I don't have a 9mm. Have some ammo though.



Close up of a spent case fired in the PP showing scuffed side of the case. I don't see any real big scratches but will have to say the rounds seem to have a little more of this light scuffing running the length of the case. This picture seems to show it not scratched along as it actually is. Whatever, the scuffing is light, barely felt, no bulging and no big scratches, dents or dings.

I'll try more videos. I've hosted them before. I don't know what is wrong. M1911
 

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'17, sign up for a Youtube account and post your videos in all their many-megabyte high-def glory. It's how I do it, and wicked easy. Photobucket really isn't designed for video.

-Pilotsteve
 

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Discussion Starter #103
I had a You Tube account but they tied it up to something else and now my password and user name don't work. Dang computers, too complicated. These videos were only 1:30 long but Photobuckets limits you to 500mb and 10 min. I have no idea how to tell how many how many mb the videos are. Am trying one with lower setting just to see it if will load. M1911
 

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Discussion Starter #104 (Edited)
Arrrrrgh....getting worse, but a new observation. OK, loaded up the more powerful Sellier and Bellot 73 gr. Three hammer malfunctions out of the first five rounds. What I'm doing now is spending more time looking at the hammer than the target. I had decided that today I would fire slowly, making sure that I had a firm grip and check the chambered round after the hammer went forward to see if there was any firing pin mark. There was not.

But, what I did notice on the first shot that while the hammer followed the slide forward there didn't seem to be the speed of follow that I would expect. So, I decided to slow down even more and in fact make sure I held the trigger all the way back, fully pulled, after firing. Twice more the hammer dropped...but only after I began to release the trigger. I've replaced the hammer and hammer block pin, nothing else. Nothing has been filed on, stoned....nothing.

I can't say that this is what the pistol was originally doing but I bet it is. So, after you fire the trigger is disconnected. How exactly? When I let go of the trigger what would cause the hammer to drop? I notice that with the slide off and my grips off the trigger bar does not really move up and down freely. With the hammer cocked I can depress the rear of the trigger bar and is stays down unless jiggled and then it pops up. The trigger spring is inserted but perhaps it is weak and worn out. Pulling the trigger slightly rearward, very slightly, allows the bar to pop up. In fact, as I pull the already held back trigger the trigger bar rises in three or four jerks and the trigger feels gritty. This doesn't seem right. I don't have time now but this evening will pull the trigger, spring and trigger bar and.....put up some photos.

The inside of the slide adjacent to the trigger bar seems ok. Might be some more weak springs. When the trigger assembly is out of the pistol and the trigger bar installed the spring holds the trigger bar almost straight up when the trigger is positioned in it's normal position, forward but outside of the frame. Fitment between the front end of the trigger bar and trigger is pretty loose when the male end is inserted.

Machining of the trigger bar channel and the trigger bar shows a lot of rough machine/grinding marks. Spreewerkes like. :) I'm wondering what is going on if the hammer is following the slide forward but only after I just let off the trigger. That is what was happening today. Not once in 15 rounds did the hammer follow the slide unless the trigger was released. M1911



Real short video showing following hammer. This was the first shot and I didn't video any more. Didn't have my tripod anyway. After this, I fired about 15 more rounds and held the trigger all the way back after each shot. On four or five the hammer dropped when I let off the trigger just a bit. I have taken everything apart, looked the trigger bar over, the trigger spring assembly, the slide, the sear, etc. I still don't see anything wrong and can't duplicate this manually. The trigger bar seems to behave properly, it moves up every time to engage the sear when I begin pulling the trigger. The slide disengages it when moved rearward and the tolerance doesn't seem to be too tight. Not much wear to anything that I can see. When I let the hammer forward under thumb control and then release the trigger the sear drops but pressure from the hammer face holds the block from dropping until I barely pull the trigger, then the block drops.

Another thing the new hammer does is sometimes the DA cocking lever slips off the rear of the sear. ??? Everything looks fine, I rarely pull DA but I thought the trigger bar was slipping off the sear but it is the cocking dog leg lever. I will put the old hammer back in and see if that one does it now. I had not noticed this before. In any event, the sear and trigger bar seem to be working fine. So, I'm not making much progress here. When we get this pistol sorted I guess most of us will know a lot more about the operation of the fire control components of a PP and its brothers and sisters.

Pictures in a bit.
 

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Discussion Starter #105


Picture of the hammer cocked, slide closed. The trigger bar fully engages the sear when the trigger is pulled.



Here the slide has been pulled rearward just a bit so that the disconnector tab has been pressed down. Repeatedly pulling the trigger with the slide at any rearward location will not engage the trigger bar with the sear.



The trigger spring and fitment of the trigger bar to the trigger/spring look like this. It appears the spring is bent on purpose so that when installed it presses the trigger bar outward a bit.



This is how the installed spring holds the trigger bar when no pressure is applied. Almost straight up from the trigger. When installed the spring is wound tighter increasing upward pressure on the trigger bar.



The right had side of the slide where the disconnector tab is engaged seems to be in good shape. There is very minimal peening or wear to the one spot on the disconnect tab where it rubs on the slide. Still, the trigger bar is pressed down more than an adequate amount so that the sear is not engage when the slide is not fully forward.

The cocking lever sliding off the sear probably means it needs adjusting a bit by a Mike at M&M. Why the hammer is being held at full cock after firing a round and until the trigger is let forward just a bit is unknown to me. I will install the original trigger and see if this continues. Any ideas are welcome.

I'm assuming the decocker lever plays no part in this. ??? M1911



Picture of old and new hammer. The old hammer is on the right and you can see that the cocking lever has been adjusted to reach in a bit more. This arrangement properly fit the sear. Man, there could be a lot of things to adjust a bit if you were to install new parts. Just dropping some of them in there doesn't get the job done.
 

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Discussion Starter #106
In summary.

I have tried several brands of ammo.
The safety de-cocks the hammer at the proper position.
A new plunger spring has been installed
The hammer will not slip off of the sear with thumb pressure on the hammer, dropping the slide or bumping the pistol onto a towel
The hammer block moves smoothly
The trigger bar seems to engage and disengage properly depending on slide position
The sear appears undamaged
A new hammer has been tried
There doesn't appear to be any interference from the factory grips.
The trigger spring is properly installed.
I cannot duplicate the hammer drop manually.
The hammer toe appears to be in good shape and correct length.
It appears that if the trigger is held rearward after firing the hammer will not drop until the trigger is let forward a bit. This occurs randomly.
There are no firing pin marks on the chambered round when this occurs.

Today I will try it again with the original hammer and the grips off. I will be inspecting the position of the sear, hammer and trigger bar after each shot and before I release the trigger to see if I can see anything out of order.

I have an appointment scheduled with Mike @ M&M next Saturday. That should get to the bottom of it. M1911
 

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I have had this happen to me and found that replacing the recoil spring and hammer spring worked to reverse this condition.

I believe this malfunction can be caused by slightly weak springs allowing the slide to "whack" the frame with enough force it jars the sear and allows the hammer to ride down with the slide.

I had this condition on a .32 PPK and .22 PP and for both new standard weight Wolf springs "cured" it. Both pistols were well used and the parts unaltered.
 

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Discussion Starter #108 (Edited)
At this point 153....I'd take any ideas. :)

Last night I took the pistola apart, carefully inspected the trigger, spring and trigger bar, slide....put it all back together after not seeing much. I put the original hammer back in. It fits better......somewhere along the way in this Forum I remember MGMike discussing Walther expert fitters. Yep, they are needed. The new hammer did not fit against the hammer strut properly, the front edge of the DA cocking lever was rough and could be felt dragging along the edge of the sear. It also was not adjusted properly for this pistol and would slip off the rear of the sear in DA. Now none of this is serious in and of itself...but it illustrates Mike's statement about not being able to just drop parts in sometimes. Proper installation requires a gunsmith and I think even better an experienced Walther gunsmith.

So today, I rounded up camera, tri pod, .32 PP, two types of ammo and ear protection. When I got set up at my range I had determined that I was going to remove the grips so i could see what was going on....after the fact. The idea, make sure the hammer was securely caught, fire, securely hold the trigger rearward, inspect the position of sear/hammer engagement, trigger bar, etc. let off the trigger and see when where and how the hammer occasionally drops when pressure is first let off the trigger. So, 50 rounds later, grips off, fire, careful inspection, trigger all the way back, release trigger to see if the hammer would drop. Perfect everything. :confused:

Grips, naw, couldn't be the grips. I had looked them over way back. I inspected them again in good light....looked everywhere. I couldn't see any marks from the sear, trigger bar....anything. So I screwed them back on. Now I knew it was going to screw up.....but 48 rounds later...100%?
I was making some videos and some slo motion videos and then....on round #99, when I was least expecting it.....the hammer dropped. :mad:

So I removed the grips and took a look. I didn't see anything but I did suspect something. I have a death grip on the pistol and was pulling the trigger back with the first joint of my trigger finger. Pulling it back hard. I noticed when I did this that operating the slide would become fairly difficult when it came to the slide disconnecting the trigger bar from the sear. So, I placed the tip of my trigger finger on the trigger and the slide operated much easier when encountering the disconnect appendage. Then I put the grips back on, loosened up on the death grip, used the tip of my trigger finger and in 20 rounds didn't have any issues.

I guess my question is....could holding back too hard on the trigger cause the problems I am having. When using the tip of my finger and firing I could actually feel the trigger bumping back a little as the slide operated.
I am still keeping my appointment with Mike. I think the pistol needs a good going over. 99% isn't good enough although is will be a range and plinker....not for self defense. I hate to be defeated by a mechanical contraption made of pieces of steel. :( Thoughts.

I'm not sure if taking the trigger and trigger bar out made any changes. Nothing was dirty, nothing bent that I could see. Nothing binding. Sure hope Mike will be willing to share what he finds in there. :) Not this Saturday, next Saturday. 120 rounds....and one unintended hammer fall. I was even banging the pistol on a towel between shots. Hammer wouldn't drop. I'll clean it go shooting again soon...with just my finger tip. I'm out of ideas. M1911
 

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'17, would it help any of I posted some up close & personal pictures of the lockwork of my PP? I'm sure you've got the mechanism figured out by now, but I'm just wondering if it'd help. I find mysel wanting to get to the bottom of this mystery as much as you!

-Pilotsteve
 

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Discussion Starter #112
'17, would it help any of I posted some up close & personal pictures of the lockwork of my PP? I'm sure you've got the mechanism figured out by now, but I'm just wondering if it'd help. I find myself wanting to get to the bottom of this mystery as much as you!

-Pilotsteve
Oh, we are going to get it sorted if I have to go from muzzle to magazine. :) Put up some good pictures. My latest idea after holding the trigger back too hard is....there is just a little wear at the disconnector bump on the trigger bar. The outer edge is worn just a tad and this might make the slide shove the TB in against the frame. I don't see that that should cause a problem. Today I will go shoot up to 50 rounds with just my finger tip. If I have a follow through...I will stop and scratch my head some more. It is hard for me to believe something is just that little bit off. I sure can't see anything and yesterday was Rem ammo and Sellior which should rule out ammo issues. As you can see from the videos...the pistol does know how to function 99 out of 100 rounds. No death grip on the pistol and especially trigger today and I will report how she runs.

Had a dream last night that Mike showed up at my farm with his wife (don't know if he has a wife) anyway, he lit into all my firearms and was having a great time explaining this or that, had his tools and was having at it. I was all ears. :p Then I woke up.

I'm not exactly sure what you should post pictures of. How the trigger bar sits at rest from the right side, how the trigger bar sits with the hammer cocked. What I'm wondering...will a trigger bar from an Interarms .380 fit in a '69 PP. I just can't figure out what would cause the hammer to drop those few time when I released the trigger.. Most of the time when the trigger was released the sear remained caught. I can feel a jump of the trigger when firing if using the tip of my finger, like when the slide might be tapping the trigger bar disconnector or something. Does everyone feel that? I guess I should also grab some .380 and see if that brand new PPK/S works. Haven't even fired it yet. Looks to clean and shiny to shoot. Sure wish it had been a .22 or .32. :) But, a new free PPK/S Interarms is nothing to not be happy about. M1911
 

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Just a shot in the dark here, but have you checked any wiggle with the cocking piece and the rivets that rotate in the frame? I have seen frame holes that have key-holed from wear and the cocking piece/rivet assembly move away when the hammer contact area rests against it and do a downward missalignment and dissengage from the hammer contact. A good way to check this is to remove the grips and have everything at rest (hammer down) to start a double action shooting sequence. Pull slowly on the trigger and the trigger bar will start to pull the cocking piece to engage the hammer sear. If you see the cocking piece move a lot then there is a sign that the frame or rivets are worn.
Another test is to have the grips off and thumb cock the hammer to a single action mode. Just pull the hammer back and don't touch the trigger. Let the hammer go and it will index on the cocking piece and see if the cocking piece shifts. Once it is indexed, push on the back of the hammer spur and see if the fit has any shift as you let it down on the cocking piece. Also, in single action mode, push down hard forward on the hammer spur and see if it skips off the cocking piece engagement.
 

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Discussion Starter #114 (Edited)
Thanks Viper.....the sear, cocking piece seems to be fine. Rivets in good shape, barely any play. The part does not move up or down, back or forth any noticeable amount. It is not tight though like binding. The hammer will not slip off of the sear pressing on the hammer, slamming the slide shut or banging the pistol at all points on a towel...banging it pretty hard too.

I've been looking at the de-cocking lever and notice that the hammer drops at just the tinest amount past the middle of the red circle. That would seem to indicate the part isn't sticking up too high.

Lifting the slide up and down at the rear I can feel just a bit of tolerance gap, not much though. Any less and I couldn't feel anything. I've been trying to rule out parts. Frame, slide, safety, trigger guard, magazine, hammer strut, mainspring. That leaves;

The chamber, smooth, spent case fits in and out with very little drag
The trigger-it seems to be in good shape
The trigger bar. It is straight, roughly ground, some polished areas from rubbing on the frame, is straight and not warped. Fits loosely into the hole at the trigger. Can be wobbled about some here when out of the pistol. Fits smoothly into the frame. Does not come out flush with the outer edge of the sear on the right side. Does not slip and fully lifts into the cocking hook when pulling the trigger. 3/16" take up on the trigger when the hammer is cocked until the trigger bar tightens up against the sear.

The trigger moves smoothly, there is just a tiny amount of wear to the top of the tb disconnector. There does not appear to be any binding at any point.

The hammer hook looks good, two hammers did the same thing. There is no wobble in the hammer. The plunger has a new spring and the hammer block seems to move freely. With the original hammer, the hammer block can not be held upward with the hammer down on it. It still slips downward. The new hammer would hold it partially in the up position but the slightest movement rearward of the hammer would allow it to fully drop. This does not seem to be an issue with the original hammer, smoother hammer face. :confused: Allowing the hammer to rest all the way forward while holding the trigger so that the DA cocking lever stays disengaged allows the trigger to be pulled rotating the sear up and down and compressing the hammer block plunger spring. It does not delay on the drop or stick.

With the hammer back I can lightly press the trigger bar downward and it stays down regardless of the trigger spring pressure. As the trigger is lightly pulled the rear of the trigger bar jerkily rises up. It jumps up in about three segments. This might not be the proper function but as the trigger continues to be pulled it does move all the way up to engage the cocking piece hook. I now see why it is sticking somewhat. The rear of the trigger bar disengagement half circle is pressing against the front of the sear just forward of the sear trigger bar hook. I will check that against my PPK/S. There seems to be more than enough play between the face of the trigger bar catch and the sear hook. With the trigger guard locked up using a pop sickle stick, the trigger can not be pulled far enough rearward to release the hammer. Part of the trigger guard blocks the hammer. Checking movement of the trigger bar in the new PPK/S Interarms, fitment and drag is the same. The trigger bar appears to be mim'd steel and there are no grinding marks. The ejector seems mim'd also. I can't tell about the hammer. There is no seam. Another pistol, subject for another thread. Appears to function very similar tolerance wise to the PP.

DA works fine with the original hammer. With the hammer down, slide off, trigger re-set, there is about 1/32" the hammer can be pressed forward until it engages the hammer block. When the hammer is down and not manually pressed forward it does not touch the hammer block.

The hammer and hammer strut seem to move smoothly.

What I have observed is the hammer is sometimes caught rearward, appearing cocked after firing but releasing the trigger just a bit allows the hammer to fall. I am still puzzles at what could cause that. I can not duplicate it manually. M1911
 

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This thread sounds like a typical M1911 home trigger job followed by trying to fit new parts without proper tools, fitting jigs, or training. Maybe the previous owner was trying to lighten the trigger by filing parts out of spec and passed his problem on to you. The badly filed hammer looks more like ruined part from a trigger job than anything done by a police armorer. In any case I'd quit playing with it and get it fixed by a professional. Then ask what the problem was after it's all better... :)
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'17, not sure if this might help any or not, but here's a few pictures of the cocking system of my PP, which should appear quite similar to yours.







-Pilotsteve
 

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Discussion Starter #117 (Edited)
Thanks Pilotsteve. I don't see anything different. The angles all look the same.

So, can you hold one of these pistols too firm and make it malfunction. The Last time out I fired 120 rounds and #99 had the hammer follow the slide. Today I took the pistol out again after another inspection and cleaning and fired 54 rounds. I let off on the grip a bit and used the tip of my finger and fired 54 rounds without incident...Rem and Sellior. Then disaster struck....I ran out of ammo. Had plenty of .380 but I couldn't make it fit. The new Interarms PPK/S ran fine, btw.

So, I don't know what to think. The pistol seems to be running fine. Perhpaps putting in the new hammer that didn't fit quite properly fixed it. I even let my grip get just a little sloppy and it still worked fine. Perhaps the Germans have wimpy wrists and the pistol runs better that way. I'm still going to get the Mike McClellan inspection and whatever adjustment he sees that could be made better. In the mean time...I'm wondering about reloading .32 brass. Will have to dig into that. What ever Mike comes up with I will pass along. M1911



Two hand grip, resting weak hand on top of a piece of cedar. 21'. Looks like I am moving around a bit. Will set it up in something steady one day and see if it will do better.
Five round groups except for bottom, left center. 4 there. Might shoot straighter once I start looking at the sights instead of the hammer. I appreciate all of the help and comments. At this point I can't say what exactly is going on. Other than a new ejector spring, a new witness pin and a new hammer block plunger spring, thanks to the generosity of someone, that is all that has been changed on the pistol. No filing, no polishing..nothing but cleaning and lubing. No brick work at all. Firing the PPK was OK, about like I though. This puppy is much more fun...almost as much as a .22.
 

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Discussion Starter #119
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This thread sounds like a typical M1911 home trigger job followed by trying to fit new parts without proper tools, fitting jigs, or training. Maybe the previous owner was trying to lighten the trigger by filing parts out of spec and passed his problem on to you. The badly filed hammer looks more like ruined part from a trigger job than anything done by a police armorer. In any case I'd quit playing with it and get it fixed by a professional. Then ask what the problem was after it's all better... :)
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:p Nah.....MGMike stays out of those, too much for even him to tolerate. And what is wrong with a nicely polished brick. Fitting jigs??? We don't need no stinking fitting jigs...oh wait, that is on the P22...:D M1911
 

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Discussion Starter #120
Just an update. Months down the road and the pistol still fires and functions 100%. I've probably fired 500 to 600 rounds. My sister has fired it, my wife has fired it, grandson. No issues, the hammer no longer follows the slide forward. I think the cure was in the new hammer block and proper spring for that part. Now to find one in .22 . M1911
 
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