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Discussion Starter #1
For the life of me I cannot figure out why the P 99 has not caught on with police forces in the US. It is much safer than the Glock ( to me) and offers the same quickness of action as the Glock. The Glock's factory trigger measures 6lb ( sometimes heavier) and the Glock's very short reset trigger on the first shot makes it doubly dangerous. The longer trigger pull on the P 99 is smooth and can be used just as fast as the Glock in up close and dangerous situations. Plus the trigger does not have to be pulled to remove the slide from the frame on the P 99. We had a police officer here, who was field stripping his Glock to clean it, accidentally kill his wife when he pulled the trigger to remove the slide and the pistol was loaded. A friend of mine told me the same thing happened in Pennsylvania; and the state police there went to the Sig 320 with safety as a result. Your thoughts.
 

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1) too complicated for most LEOs
2) Walther is ****e when it comes to advertising
3) limited accessories available
4) trained armorers for Glock are on every streetcorner
 

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No amount of safety features, passive or active, will completely make up for sheer stupidity, ignorance, or plain lack of training or common sense.

Guns are meant to be fired when the trigger is pulled.

If the Glock fired a round when the guy squeezed the trigger, how is that the fault of the gun?

It's not, the gun functioned as it should. It's his actions that failed. He ****ed up.

A 5 pound trigger or one with a 6 inch pull wouldn't have kept his stupid ass from doing it wrong. Horrible analogy, and NOT at all indicative of why by your logic a gun without a manual safety is dangerous to carry.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
No amount of safety features, passive or active, will completely make up for sheer stupidity, ignorance, or plain lack of training or common sense.

Guns are meant to be fired when the trigger is pulled.

If the Glock fired a round when the guy squeezed the trigger, how is that the fault of the gun?

It's not, the gun functioned as it should. It's his actions that failed. He ****ed up.

A 5 pound trigger or one with a 6 inch pull wouldn't have kept his stupid ass from doing it wrong. Horrible analogy, and NOT at all indicative of why by your logic a gun without a manual safety is dangerous to carry.

Yes you are correct. However, humans are not infallible and that is why safeties are placed on them. Have you never had a negligent discharge?
 

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For the life of me I cannot figure out why the P 99 has not caught on with police forces in the US. It is much safer than the Glock ( to me) and offers the same quickness of action as the Glock. The Glock's factory trigger measures 6lb ( sometimes heavier) and the Glock's very short reset trigger on the first shot makes it doubly dangerous. The longer trigger pull on the P 99 is smooth and can be used just as fast as the Glock in up close and dangerous situations. Plus the trigger does not have to be pulled to remove the slide from the frame on the P 99. We had a police officer here, who was field stripping his Glock to clean it, accidentally kill his wife when he pulled the trigger to remove the slide and the pistol was loaded. A friend of mine told me the same thing happened in Pennsylvania; and the state police there went to the Sig 320 with safety as a result. Your thoughts.
The DA/SA guns, which the P99 generally mimics, are not in vogue anymore. There has been a general shift away from then toward guns with Glock-like trigger systems.

Like it or not, that's been the trend with the US military and Federal Law Enforcement amongst those embracing the trend.

If the P99 was going to become a major player in US Law Enforcement, it would have had to happen years ago. It didn't.

Smith made some sales with the Walther-Smith hybrid SW99 but Smith lost interest as soon as they had their M&P.

The Walther P99 is a great gun that was not given the push it needed in the US when it needed it. Time has moved on though.
 

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Have you never had a negligent discharge?

Yes. Once. And it was a gun that had a manual safety. AR-15.

Thought I'd shot 30 rounds...miscounted...29. Thankfully the only thing hurt was nerves, and those healed fast.

I was also about 6 inches from being gut shot by a dropped .30-30. While those don't have a safety in the technical sense, the hammer does have a half cocked position that will not let it fire if dropped or whatnot. The one in question was either fully cocked or the hammer was fully down. Regardless, a live round was chambered (mistake 1) and two, the stooge holding the rifle was climbing into the bed of a truck whilst holding said winchester, and dropped it. (mistakes 2 and 3)

Had I been 6 inches closer to the center of the tailgate of that truck, likely would've been a mortal wound for me. A .308 bullet is pretty meaty after having already gone through 2 layers of early 70's Ford sheet metal, and I doubt my 13 year old guts would've done much to slow it down.

Why I put more faith on gun etiquette than a lever or button that a lot of ****wits don't bother with anyway.

It's also why I scoff at 10 pound triggers being safer in most instances than 5 pound triggers.

If you run a car into a tree at 125 miles an hour, you're going to be seriously hurt or killed whether or not you're wearing a seatbelt.

My point is...don't drive 125 in places where it's not allowed.

Save that bull **** for the racetracks. ;)
 

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The longer I think about it, the more I am actually surprised that it is even allowed to construct guns in such a way that the trigger has to be pulled in order to disassemble them. This is something I really dislike on the PPQ.

In this respect the P99 seems to be a perfect service gun. Its manual says it clearly: "The sole function of the trigger on the P99 pistol is to fire the cartridge. It is not necessary to squeeze the trigger prior to field-stripping." Everybody gets that.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
The longer I think about it, the more I am actually surprised that it is even allowed to construct guns in such a way that the trigger has to be pulled in order to disassemble them. This is something I really dislike on the PPQ.

In this respect the P99 seems to be a perfect service gun. Its manual says it clearly: "The sole function of the trigger on the P99 pistol is to fire the cartridge. It is not necessary to squeeze the trigger prior to field-stripping." Everybody gets that.
This was one of Sig selling points to the US military that is safer than the Glock because the trigger did not have to be pulled to field strip it.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
The DA/SA guns, which the P99 generally mimics, are not in vogue anymore. There has been a general shift away from then toward guns with Glock-like trigger systems.

Like it or not, that's been the trend with the US military and Federal Law Enforcement amongst those embracing the trend.

If the P99 was going to become a major player in US Law Enforcement, it would have had to happen years ago. It didn't.

Smith made some sales with the Walther-Smith hybrid SW99 but Smith lost interest as soon as they had their M&P.

The Walther P99 is a great gun that was not given the push it needed in the US when it needed it. Time has moved on though.
The US military required a thumb safety on the pistol to be entered in trials.
 

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The US military required a thumb safety on the pistol to be entered in trials.
True. But they still went with a strike fired "consistent action" design.

I own quite a few DA/SA guns and still shoot and carry them sometimes but the trend away from these type of guns for law enforcement and military use is undeniable.
 

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The longer I think about it, the more I am actually surprised that it is even allowed to construct guns in such a way that the trigger has to be pulled in order to disassemble them. This is something I really dislike on the PPQ.

In this respect the P99 seems to be a perfect service gun. Its manual says it clearly: "The sole function of the trigger on the P99 pistol is to fire the cartridge. It is not necessary to squeeze the trigger prior to field-stripping."

The PPQ, in spite of several opinions to the contrary on this forum, was never intended as a standard service pistol. It was designed for use by police or military special forces, who are not subject to the same equipment constraints as their rank-and-file brethren. This is stated quite clearly on the manufacturer's website:

“Die WALTHER PPQ wurde ausschließlich für den Einsatz in Sondereinheiten konzipiert”.

Walther must have been somewhat disappointed in the lack of response from their intended market. To the best of my knowledge, the only (regular) police force which adopted the PPQ is the Taiwan police (in 2016), and we don't know what, if any, modifications they specified (such as a heavier trigger-pull). The only special forces which appear to have ordered it were the various Greek units featured in the advertising campaign. I've seen the footage, but haven't seen any numbers from a government department - so whether they actually procured it, or merely tested it, is uncertain. If anyone knows of any others, please chime in.

To respond to the trend towards service pistols with constant trigger pull-force, Walther developed the P99Q and later the PPQ P3/M3 (2015), all of which have German police certification and can be field-stripped without pressing the trigger.

Unfortunately for Walther, this new PPQ failed to win the Bayern police contract, and the recent Sachsen-Anhalt police contract was awarded to a new police-conform version of the Glock (the other two tenders were not publicly named, but it seems reasonable to assume that the PPQ P3/M3 was submitted).

The P99 version currently in use by various German police forces is the P99Q, with the exception of Nordrhein-Westfalen, who have the P99 DAO. The Dutch police also use a version of the P99Q, as do the Estonian police and border guards. The P99 SA version made in Radom under licence is used in large numbers by the Polish police - but even they are moving away from the DA/SA concept, as their latest service-pistol contract was awarded to Beretta (Model APX, which has a partially pre-cocked trigger mechanism, and a trigger pull-force almost identical to the PPQ - ca. 25 Newton).

To summarise:

1) The DA/SA configuration has fallen out of favour in the markets which are the most interesting for pistol manufacturers.

2) The PPQ has proved immensely popular in a market for which it was not primarily intended, leading to the development of various sporting versions which are far removed from special forces usage (e.g. 1200/1300g steel-framed models).

3) The police-conform version of the PPQ (i.e. the P3/M3) has not, to date, proved to have been a success in its intended market.

Balor
 

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There is at least one P99 on the planet being used by LEO



Screenshot_20190329-193045.jpg

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The PPQ, in spite of several opinions to the contrary on this forum, was never intended as a standard service pistol. It was designed for use by police or military special forces, who are not subject to the same equipment constraints as their rank-and-file brethren. This is stated quite clearly on the manufacturer's website:

“Die WALTHER PPQ wurde ausschließlich für den Einsatz in Sondereinheiten konzipiert”.
The circumstance that the PPQ can be considered a standard police pistol is probably a result of Walther's own odd nomenclature. Why was it named Police Pistol Quick Action after all? Also, Walther advertises the PPQ with the following statements on their website:

"The WALTHER PPQ meets all the demands placed on a modern police pistol."
"[Its] safety features make the WALTHER PPQ an extremely safe pistol."

Both statements do not immediately suggest a pistol that has been designed exclusively for highly trained special forces. I have the impression that Walther's own marketing department doesn't know exactly how they should present their products on the market.

To respond to the trend towards service pistols with constant trigger pull-force, Walther developed the P99Q and later the PPQ P3/M3 (2015), all of which have German police certification and can be field-stripped without pressing the trigger.
The text on Walther's website confuses me even when it comes to these two pistols. For the models PPQ M3/P3 I can read: "Im Falle eines Zündversagers kann über den Abzug erneut ausgelöst werden, ohne vorher zwangsweise durchrepetieren zu müssen. Keine andere Pistole mit teilgespanntem Abzug bietet diese Funktion." I fully agree with the first sentence. What about the second sentence? Did it actually belong to the P99Q model at the time it was introduced?

Walther makes excellent weapons. But what their own marketing department makes out of it, doesn't leave a particular impression on me. Am I the only one who considers that?
 

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"The WALTHER PPQ meets all the demands placed on a modern police pistol."

If you go to PRODUKTE > DEFENSE WAFFEN > PISTOLEN and then select PPQ Classic from the displayed pistols, you will see the exact German equivalent of the English text you quoted above. However, if you go to PORTALE > POLIZEI-PORTAL and then select Walther PPQ Classic you will see the quote from my post, followed by a somewhat different description of the pistol.


The text on Walther's website confuses me even when it comes to these two pistols. For the models PPQ M3/P3 I can read: "Im Falle eines Zündversagers kann über den Abzug erneut ausgelöst werden, ohne vorher zwangsweise durchrepetieren zu müssen. Keine andere Pistole mit teilgespanntem Abzug bietet diese Funktion." I fully agree with the first sentence. What about the second sentence? Did it actually belong to the P99Q model at the time it was introduced?

Whether it was so at the time of its introduction, I can't say. However, if you stay in the POLIZEI-PORTAL and select P99, you will see the three P99 models currently manufactured. Under P99Q you will find the following text:

“Das teilgespannte Schlagbolzenschloss der P99 Q erlaubt im Falle eines Anzündversagers ein beliebig häufiges, erneutes Abziehen (Reset-Funktion), ähnlich der Funktion von Waffen mit klassischem Double Action Only Abzug”.

Incidentally, in case you haven't already read it, under Walther PPQ M3 (also in the POLIZEI-PORTAL) you will find the VISIER article, from December 2015, describing this pistol in detail.


Walther makes excellent weapons. But what their own marketing department makes out of it, doesn't leave a particular impression on me. Am I the only one who considers that?

I have to agree.

Balor
 
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