Walther Forums banner

P5 Police surplus from S.O.G.

11K views 56 replies 12 participants last post by  PX15 
#1 ·
Guys, I wanted to share a "heads up" with you regarding the P5's offered by SOG. I recently ordered and received one myself. The pistols are advertised as excellent condition and I was told by the phone rep that they were "like new" when placing the order. What I got was anything but excellent or like new. The slide was covered with spots where the blue was gone. It looked like someone had attempted to remove parts of the finish (rust?). The frame looked good with only minor dings.

The price on these P5's is very attractive, but buyer beware! Based upon my experience SOG is overrating the condition of the pistols by a large degree. Due to the complicated arrangements I have to make with my FFL I decided not to attempt returning the pistol. Instead, after working on the finish with cold blue and getting it back to just "decent" condition, I have decided to send out the slide and barrel for black melonite treatment.

I wanted a P5 to use as a shooter. That is exactly what I got.

Out West
 
#2 ·
Thanks for the head's up. Sounds like they are getting to the bottom of the barrel. I think you will have a fine gun once you have the finish work done. Don't let the original condition fo the gun ruin it for you.

Welcome to the P5 owner's club :D
 
#3 ·
I've had several friends who have been burned by S.O.G. where the gun was nowhere near the condition advertised. One of them returned a rifle due to its poor condition. S.O.G. sent a replacement that was broken and in an unsafe condition so he then returned the replacement rifle.

Another friend got a rifle in terrible condition and poor mechanical shape. He just dumped it at a gun show rather than deal with them again.

I'm not surprised to hear that they overrate the condition of their pistols as well. Hopefully, once get done restoring the finish, you'll enjoy it.
 
#4 ·
The price on these P5's is very attractive, but buyer beware! Based upon my experience SOG is overrating the condition of the pistols by a large degree. Due to the complicated arrangements I have to make with my FFL I decided not to attempt returning the pistol.
I wanted a P5 to use as a shooter. That is exactly what I got.
Out West

Out West:

I had the same experience with my surplus SOG P5 a year or so ago.. I ordered what was advertised as an "Excellent" pistol, even paid the additional $15 "hand pick" fee and when the pistol arrived it had obvious slide wear, and there is no way it would be rated, by anyone other than the seller, SOG, as Excellent... "Very good" would be a generous rating as far as external appearance would be concerned, altho the working parts were as new.

My P5 shot extremely well, but I emailed SOG and sent them pictures of the slide wear and they immediately offered to replace the pistol, or return my money. I was so pleased with the shooting performance of the P5 I had that I just couldn't see sending it back for an exchange.. If they actually did any "hand picking" I should have got the "best of the rest" anyway.

So, SOG refunded my "hand pick" fee, and I kept the P5. I think the money I paid for the surplus P5 was reasonable for the pistol I got, and I never had one seconds complaint about it's performance it's just that SOG apparently has no problem overrating the firearms they sell and that's a shame.

I think you will probably find your P5 will function quite well for you as the Walther P5 is a top quality firearm, and my understanding is that the German Government Agencies who are issued firearms (for the most part) carry them a lot, shoot them very little, and observe excellence in maintaining them.

Enjoy... And just know that SOG has a history of over rating the firearms they sell.. Or, "buyer beware" in this area if you are considering buying a surplus firearm from SOG

Best Wishes,

J. Pomeroy
 
#5 ·
my understanding is that the German Government Agencies who are issued firearms (for the most part) carry them a lot, shoot them very little, and observe excellence in maintaining them.
That observation is consistent with every German ex-police gun that I've ever owned or seen. Shot little, carried a lot, and well maintained.
 
#7 ·
Guys its good to know that my luck is not any worse than the next fellow's. However, it is a poor reflection on the seller.

I have to second the carried much, fired little comments. You know how aluminum rails quickly show wear from firing? The rails on the P5 I received looked virgin. The rails were fully black along the entire rail. The only wear on the frame were a few nicks on the sharp edges of the trigger gaurd and the the throat area where rounds bump up as they enter the chamber. The latter was surprising given the condition of the rails - I would think the rails would show some wear from loading the chamber.

One other thing I noticed, the bore was filthy. Germans have a reputation for good maintenance. I am guessing that the pistol may have been put into storage with a generous coating of oil that subsequently turned dark.

This is my second P5 (sold the first), and while I have not shot it yet, I expect it will do just fine at the range. The P5's trigger action is unlike anything else. So smooooth! I can't wait to get the top end back and hit the range.

Out West
 
#8 ·
This is pretty disappointing to me. I was considering either a P5 or WW2 P-38 from SOG. Here's a pic of a P5 from the SOG website...



Looks pretty spectacular to me. I figured this was one of the "hand picks".
If the P5 they send out is so crappy, I shudder to think what the P-38 in "Very Good' condition must be like!! :eek:

Dep



 
#9 ·
Dep: Don't be put off on the purchase of a P5. It's a fabulous gun -- wonderful to shoot, with a great design that is mechanically as sound as anything you'll ever find as as accurate as your hand allows. The P38s and P1s are a blast to fire, and this is an upgraded extension of that same basic floor plan. If you poke around a bit and find one to your liking, you surely won't be disappointed in the performance. The P5 is the real deal. Salute.
 
#10 ·
Any large lot of surplus ex-police guns will run the gamut in cosmetic condition, though all will be serviceable. Don't expect uniformity-- it isn't there. The cream puffs will be picked off fairly early by people on the inside track, but for the rest, you'll get whatever is next on the pile. Except at the very end, where broken or rusty remnants are cleared out, there is no "scraping of the barrel".

Even if you pay a handpick fee, there's no assurance that the warehouse guy (who's probably not even a gun fancier) knows what you like, and his examination will be superficial at best.

Unless there is stated by the seller a very clear spectrum of condition, with correspondingly higher prices to match (indicating that in fact the guns have been actually sorted for condition), you're probably just as well off ignoring the handpick fee. As with many such things, it's the reputation of the seller that counts.

M
 
#11 ·
Uncut has reminded us more than once that the German police guns were often carried, seldom shot, and that remains true. Today I put a hundred rounds or so through the P5 that I picked up a couple of months ago from my local FFL, who got it through SOG. For what it's worth, the #&#(*&$ is amazing. It's dead-on accurate (far better than my hand), and it functions flawlessly. It's not the best-looking pistol in the gun safe, by any stretch -- the slide shows multiple signs of holster wear, and I'm thinking of getting it hard-chromed -- but it is rapidly becoming my go-to gun for a flat-out fun day at the range. The P5, IMHO, is every bit the equal of the P99 -- and the 99, as we all know, is amazing. If you haven't shot a P5, I'd urge you to take the plunge. You won't be sorry, even if looks a little tired.
 
#12 ·
Except at the very end, where broken or rusty remnants are cleared out, there is no "scraping of the barrel".
True, but there is a bottom of the barrel, and in term of cosmetics you've got a lot of guys paying the $10 for a handpicked, so at some point what is left will more than likely be less that the first ones sold, cosmetically speaking. Of course, as you point out, the value of paying for a handpicked gun depends upon how much effort the warehouseman is willing to put in when choosing from hundreds of guns or if the guns have been laid out and sorted.

Fortunately the correlation between external wear and internal wear is not one to one. These guns are shooters and not meant to be safe queens.

I would also point out that this is a different situation from the surplus P7 sales where HK has actually gone over each gun evaluating and grading it. It is worth noting that the A,B or C grade assigned by HK has almost nothing to do with the cosmetics fo a gun but is based on the internal wear/condition.

How much SOG evaluates/sorts any gun before sale (if at all) is questionable. Anyone know for sure?
 
#18 ·
When a distributor drops the price of a previously offered surplus lot, that's generally because the initial price was pegged too high for the overall condition of the guns in the lot, and dealers were not reordering fast enough to recover the investment within an acceptable period of time.

Unless the lot has actually been sorted, graded and priced according to condition (which is a rarity nowadays because it requires skilled labor and adds to time, handling and cost), paying a "handpicked" surcharge is usually a waste of money. Those who have actually watched the typical warehouseman whose hands are doing the picking would, I think, agree.

M
 
#19 ·
It might also be that the gun design itself simply isn't popular. I mean it's around the same size as most hi-cap 9MMs, yet it only holds 8 rounds. It isn't really very concealable. It doesn't have the historical charisma of a WW2 P-38. I just don't think there is a big demand for this gun. I would hold off...they may end up lowering this thing to the price of the surplus P-1/P-38s they brought in.
 
#20 ·
No argument with either MGMike's or Deputy's immediate obersvations above, except to add -- once again -- that the P5 is as reliable as Pacific Northwest rain, is a pleasure (no, a joy) to shoot, is as accurate as a handgun gets, is a mechanically marvel of superior engineering, and ... it's a Walther to boot.

Sure, I'd love to see them lower in price. Sure, I'd love to see a real, honest-to-god hand-selection sometime instead of the old first-one-I-can-grab mentality ... regardless of who is offering the selections. But make no mistake, folks: The P5 is the real deal. Run, don't walk. :D
 
#21 ·
I admit to having an old man's dinosauric prejudice against plastic guns, just as my uncle, a WWII bomber pilot, has never quite accepted airplanes without propellers. Maybe it's because I have trouble visualizing any plastic gun lasting long enough to become a family heirloom treasured by a future generation. (The service life of plastic could become a topic in itself, so I won't digress.) All of the polymer pistols seem so much the same--minor variations on the Glock theme--that they really lack, in my eyes, individual character.

The P5, in contrast, was almost the last pistol that Walther produced that did not pop out of injection molds, and in terms of engineering and performance is--in my view--the best and most satisfying pistol Walther ever made, or is likely to.

M
 
#22 ·
Well I am an odd bird. I like the steel frames and the polymer frames, but I'm not very impressed with the alloy frames. I have seen cracked alloy frames too many times to mess with them. In small popguns like .32 or .380...they're okay. Not much stress on them. But I've seen Colt Commanders with frame cracks and that's just using hardball and not +P ammo. I don't even trust the new scandium frames from S&W. And they get rave reviews from everyone that owns one.

Dep



 
#23 ·
A +1 here to the MG man, and a nod of understanding to the Dep's remarks. I would surely love to see the P5 with a solid steel frame, just as I'd love to see the readily accessible P1 with the same steel frame that the P38 relied on (and yes, it's true that if you look hard enough, you can sometimes find some of the P1s with a steel frame). Still ...

The truth of the matter is that Walther's finest piece of craftsmanship is, was, and remains the P88. It is a marvel of engineering -- a true work of art. If they didn't cost two arms and your first-born child, and if they were more readily available, it would be the one gun that everyone would use and would agree upon. Sadly, they aren't, and they are not. And while I have no beef with the P99 (I rather enjoy mine, in fact), I'd still rather shoot the P5 day in and day out. There's just something about the performance of the P5 and the heft of the P5 and the consistency of the P5 and the accuracy of the P5 that roars and barks and screams quality.

I would offer this challenge: Borrow one or rent one and take it out the range and run 50 rounds through it. That will be more than enough to convince you that it's the one Walther you ought to run out and buy next. Presuming, of course, that you don't already own one. Or two. Or three ... You can never have enough, you know. :)
 
#26 ·
This one we are gonna really have to disagree on. I came close to buying a P-88 when it first came out. I spotted it in my dealer's display case and asked him why such a wonderful/cool-looking gun wasn't sold already? First thing he asked me was "have you ever held one in your hand?" I said no, so he took it out of the case and gave it to me. He said "notice the thickness of the grip area". Holy moley!!! I could barely reach the trigger with my index finger, and couldn't reach the mag release without getting a completely new grip on the gun. I handed it back to him and thanked him for pointing out the problems.
He saved me spending me a good chunk of money on a gun that had/has some serious ergo-flaws. Is it accurate? Most definitley. And the ones I see at Earls have a completely different grip than the one I held. There was no finger groove in it and it was made of plastic, not wood.

I always wondered what happened at the US Army pistol tests with the P-88. I did some poking around and found out:

Carl Walther Waffenfabrik, West Germany--P88--Terminated by Army on
September 18, 1984, for failing drop test, dispersion, corrosion resistence, and adverse conditions requirements.

I'll stick to the P-99 :D

Dep
 
#24 ·
The cream puffs will be picked off fairly early by people on the inside track, but for the rest, you'll get whatever is next on the pile.
That's it in a nutshell. Some 30yrs ago, after I got out of the USMC, I worked for SARCO Inc in Sterling, NJ. At the time they were the Eastcoast rival of Interarms. When we would buy bulk surplus weapons, we would take the time to grade them AS WE SAW FIT. And I can tell you that some of the GRADERS didn't know the difference between a buttstock and a forearm....

Once we sold all of the "Grade 1" hand select, our grade 2s automatically became the new "Grade 1." After these were gone, the grade 3s were moved up to the "Grade 1" status....and on and on it went.

So if you want to get a decent surplus pistol, my suggestion is to get them as soon as you can because after that the pickins become mighty slim.
 
#25 ·
With the P5, Walther put right everything that was wrong with the P.38, and added some very significant features as well. The P5 represents the ultimate refinement nd extension of that basic design; the rigorous testing and final selection by the British of the P5C against all its competitors confirms its soundness. It is true that the P5 has an alloy frame, but I've looked at hundreds and never seen a broken or cracked frame (or slide).

The P88 requires more complex evaluation. One of these days we can take up its virtues and sins on its own forum, which hasn't seen a post in quite a while.

If I could only learn to take and upload pictures...

M
 
#27 ·
Hmmmm. With regard to the U.S. Army test ... I demand a recount. :)

I'll grant you that P88 is thick in the middle. The one I have wears Nills wooden grips and, while lovely, requires a large hand (which I don't necessarily have). But it is still a wondergun -- a truly remarkable engineering feat. Even at that, I'd still rather shoot the P5. MGMike is correct. The 5 is the ultimate extension of the P38 design -- and the P38 design has held up under world scrutiny and at least one world war pretty darn well overall, thank you very much.

Wish you were close enough to get you out the range with one, Dep. I'd wager that you'd adopt the P5 in a heartbeat. I'm not saying that you'd abandon your P99 on the side of the road -- but you'd sure as shootin' take a 5 to the range with you on most every trip you'd make.

Failed the drop test? I don't believe it!
 
#33 ·

The grips shown on Earl's page are Karl Nill grips.... one of the best grip makers in the world.
One of the last pistols Walther had true factory grips on was the PP Super.
After that the grips were done out of house or they just used Nill's. The P38 or PP Super is one of the hardest guns to get factory wood for.
While I have no horse in this race (the P88 is out of my price range at this point) I have to say that the answer is simple.
The P88 is one fine weapon and I would pick it over another alloy framed gun anytime of the week. Why you don't see it used is simple. At the time of production it was too expensive. And now you don't see it issued or used by any police department anymore since there is no production and that means no parts
The P88 dealer cost in 1988 was $874
 
#37 ·

The grips shown on Earl's page are Karl Nill grips.... one of the best grip makers in the world.
One of the last pistols Walther had true factory grips on was the PP Super.
After that the grips were done out of house or they just used Nill's. The P38 or PP Super is one of the hardest guns to get factory wood for.
In my opinion, Karl Nill is not ONE of the best grip makers in the world--it is THE best.

I believe that all so-called "factory" wooden grips for Walther pistols were in fact outsourced, though I cannot identify who made them before Nill. The earlier ones for the PP-series and P38 are of distinctly different design, probably not made by Nill. Nill grips first appeared on Walther handguns in the '90s if I recall correctly, though stocks for some Walther small bore and air rifles (as well as the WA2000) may have been supplied by Nill much earlier.

Regardless what Earl's is now showing on his website, back in '94-95, when the P99 was first produced and the P88 was in turn being phased out, there were no "factory" wooden grips offered for the P88.

M
 
#34 ·
Searcher: My horse seems to have fallen asleep at the starting line. The dang thing just won't move, and that means I can't move in either direction to pick either one. I love my horse! :D

Oliver: At the time of Uncle Sam choosing a gun for the military, the P-88 was eliminated early on for the reasons I posted. It never got to the point of being eliminated for being too expensive. It simply didn't pass the tests.
I think if it did pass the tests Walther would have quickly dropped the price to a competitive level. Especially considering the quantities that would have been purchased. There is nothing that makes the P-88 WORTH as much as they asked for it. There's nothing revolutionary about it's design and no exotic parts that would justify the price. As a matter of fact, it's not even a Walther action in it but a Browning action. The Beretta 92 that HAD the Walther action is the one that won the contract.

Since Walther built the gun in the first place for military or police use, one has to wonder why they would price it in the stratosphere, knowing that police departments always work on a tight budget. So they priced it as a Porsche for a bunch of organizations that could only afford a Volkswagen. Not exactly a smart thing to do. The Spec Ops community can pretty much pick and choose any gun they want. If the P-88 was so superlative, it would have been chosen by individuals in that community, and if it was so popular that there was a general clamor for them, I think Walther wouldn't waste any time putting them back in production. For that matter, they'd probably contract with S&W to make them. Generally speaking, whatever the US military picks, the police departments (and civilians) also buy. When the Beretta 92 was chose there was such a huge demand for them among police and civilians that demand far outstripped supply. Police received priority and got the Berettas first. Eventually supply caught up and civilians were able to buy them too. It's likely if the P-88 had passed the tests and been adopted, the same thing would have happened. And it would be a gun that made world history instead of a footnote in the Walther history.

Dep



 
#35 ·
Searcher: My horse seems to have fallen asleep at the starting line. The dang thing just won't move, and that means I can't move in either direction to pick either one. I love my horse! :D

Since Walther built the gun in the first place for military or police use, one has to wonder why they would price it in the stratosphere, knowing that police departments always work on a tight budget. So they priced it as a Porsche for a bunch of organizations that could only afford a Volkswagen. Not exactly a smart thing to do. The Spec Ops community can pretty much pick and choose any gun they want. If the P-88 was so superlative, it would have been chosen by individuals in that community, and if it was so popular that there was a general clamor for them, I think Walther wouldn't waste any time putting them back in production. For that matter, they'd probably contract with S&W to make them. Generally speaking, whatever the US military picks, the police departments (and civilians) also buy. When the Beretta 92 was chose there was such a huge demand for them among police and civilians that demand far outstripped supply. Police received priority and got the Berettas first. Eventually supply caught up and civilians were able to buy them too. It's likely if the P-88 had passed the tests and been adopted, the same thing would have happened. And it would be a gun that made world history instead of a footnote in the Walther history.

Dep
The forum requires at least ten words in a reply. Here's one: Frump! :D
 
#38 ·
Thank you for all of your comments... I definitely feel like the student here soaking it all in. Dep - you and I share the same feelings about double stacked mags guns, that's why I could never enjoy the Beretta 92's, even some of the Sigs. The P88 was the very first one which actually fit my hand.

Although I enjoy shooting P38's, P1's, I haven't mastered my P5 for only one reason, range time. I do find it light on the top end with the short barrel.

i have been shooting my Sig P225 the longest and, it is my strongest shooter.


 
#39 ·
Photo: You sure take pretty pics!!! :D

Looking at that P5, I could ALMOST be convinced to buy one. Very nice looking. And for gosh sakes don't tell Searcher I said that. He's been harassing me to order one for weeks. :eek: :D



 
#41 ·
Dep: I'll say it again. A day without a P5 is like a day without ... a P5. It's amazing to me that anyone in this day and age who proclaims himself to be an honest-to-goodness Walther man could go through life, or even a week, without one. The sheer joy of shooting the P5, or the P5c, should be more than enough in and of itself. The very thought alone should do it.

Get crackin', Dep. Time's a'wastin'.

Nice looking pictures, house. Of course, you had some lovely models to work with. :D
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top