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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've joined this forum to get a little help on a few pistols I recently purchased. Basically they were various kinds of P.38 pistols. Among them were two which are tough to find information upon.

One of these guns is a P38-K pistol in "9 PARA" (9x19mm) caliber which comes with an additional "7.65 PARA" (.30 Luger/7.65x21mm Luger) barrel; both barrels carrying the Walther flag and German firing proofs on them. The main source of information I was able to find was on the P38.nl Website which identified my pistol to be in the correct serial range. However, the checkering on the grips of my pistol seems to be different, as well as the firing proof being in a different position. Also my pistol has circle with a dot stamped both on the slide as well as on the 7.65 caliber barrel in front.

The "CAT 2401" marking on the slide I would had identified as an Italian designation; at least I know of similar markings which once were required in Italy. This made me question the 9x19mm caliber since it is prohibited in Italy. Checking of the 9mm barrel though confirmed it indeed is 9x19mm and not the Italian 9x21mm. So either it was supposed to go to Italy, what it then didn't, or it went to Italy with the 7.65 barrel and when coming back got the factory 9x19mm barrel.

Anyway, I would appreciate if the local members could confirm the pistol being an original P38-K pistol. I yet need to give it a proper cleaning, only thing I so far did was to fill the markings with a crayon for taking the pictures.
 

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Da du aus Österreich kommst, antworte ich dir auf Deutsch.
Bis vor knapp drei Jahren habe ich die gleiche P38k mit zwei Läufen besessen, gekauft 1987 bei dem deutschen Jagd- und Waffengeschäft Frankonia. Damals habe ich in Erfahrung gebracht, dass die P38k ursprünglich für den Export nach Italien vorgesehen war, erkennbar wie bei deiner P38k an der Markierung CAT 2401 und dem Kaliber 7,65 Para. Da dieser Export aber nicht stattfand, hat Walther für einen besseren Verkauf in Deutschland solche "übriggebliebene" P38k mit einem zusätzlichen Lauf in 9 mm Luger ausgestattet. Der 9mm Lauf gehörte also ursprünglich nicht zur Waffe sondern wurde nachträglich von Walther hinzugefügt. Zumindest wurde es mir so bei Frankonia berichtet.
Ich bin damals auf diese P38k mit zwei Läufen durch Werbeanzeigen von Frankonia in dem deutschen Waffenmagazin "Deutsches Waffenjournal" gestoßen. Dort wurden diese P38k ausdrücklich durch Frankonia beworben.
Ich hoffe, ich konnte dir ein paar weitere Informationen zu deiner P38k geben.
Short English summary:
Originally the P38k was intended for export to Italy, see caliber 7.65 Luger and marking CAT 2401. Since this export did not take place, Walther added the barrel in 9 mm Luger for better sales in Germany. Such P38ks with two barrels were sold in Germany in 1987 by the hunting and arms dealer Frankonia.
 

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Great information....and here's the 'full' English translation by 'google translator'. 😂

Since you come from Austria, I will answer you in German.

Until almost three years ago I owned the same P38k with two barrels, bought in 1987 from the German hunting and weapons store Frankonia. At that time I found out that the P38k was originally intended for export to Italy, recognizable as your P38k by the CAT 2401 marking and the 7.65 Para caliber. Since this export did not take place, Walther equipped such "leftover" P38k with an additional barrel in 9 mm Luger for better sales in Germany. The 9mm barrel was not originally part of the weapon but was added later by Walther. At least that's how it was reported to me at Frankonia.

Back then I came across this P38k with two runs barrels through advertisements from Frankonia in the German weapons magazine "Deutsches Waffenjournal". There these P38k were specifically advertised by Frankonia.

I hope I was able to give you some more information about your P38k.
 

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The English translation is quite good. But in the penultimate sentence it has to be "barrels" instead of "runs". The German word "Lauf" (plural "Läufe") has two meanings. Firstly "Lauf einer Waffe" , in English barrel of a gun. Secondly as a noun of the verb "laufen", in English to run.
 

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Very nice P38K. Those are rare enough with just the 9mm barrel. Looks great with the wood grips too.
 

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9x21 IMI was all the rage in Italy during the late 1980s.
It seems Walther overestimated how many 7.65 Para handguns the Italian market would require.
I'm always on the lookout for Italian market 7.65 Para handguns that were sold outside of Italy, with a 9 Para barrel thrown in to sweeten the deal. 👍
The Scheels near me always has lots of 30 Luger ammo on the shelves. I purchase it when the price is right.
 

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Very nice P38K. Those are rare enough with just the 9mm barrel. Looks great with the wood grips too.
The wooden grips were retrofitted. When I bought my P38k, it had the standard plastic grips like all other P38ks advertised and offered by Frankonia in 1987.
 

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Thanks for the replies and confirming my suspicion with the "Italian connection". I think the wooden grips were an extra. Digging a bit more on the internet I found a P38-K sold in the US last year with the same identical wooden grips: Walther P38k...Factory Snub-Nose P.38...1-Of-2600 Made...Munich Police Marked 9mm Luger . Hence they should not be individual fittings.
A service weapon of the Munich police with factory-made wooden grips? That strikes me as strange, especially since the German special unit GSG9 had also bought the P38k at the time and I think I remember seeing a picture showing such a P38k with the standard plastic grips.
Perhaps you will ask Walther in Ulm whether P38k with wooden grips were also delivered from there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
They mistook the Bavarian proof stamp for a Bavarian Police Property stamp, nothing surprising with US dealers and European stamps.
 

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[QUOTE = "Promo, post: 1274366, member: 105785"]
.......... nothing surprising with US dealers and European stamps.
[/ QUOTE]

👍
There was a nickel plated BMI lineout P5 on GB a few weeks ago, seller claimed it was a VERY rare Ulm finished factory gun (and possibly unfired). Stated he had done the research to prove the claim, and to just trust him. 🙄
 

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They mistook the Bavarian proof stamp for a Bavarian Police Property stamp, nothing surprising with US dealers and European stamps.
I took another closer look at the pictures of the P38k you linked. The correct proof marks are on the left side of the frame in front of the trigger guard and are the usual markings of the proof house in Ulm for Walther pistols, namely eagle over N, antler and year code HH = 77, i.e. 1977.
Therefore I assume that the markings on the right side of the slide after the marking eagle over N, i.e. the coat of arms with diamonds and the number 77, have something to do with the Munich police. But I can't check that at the moment because I'm in my hunting area.
It's impossible for a pistol in its original condition to have the proof marks of two different proof houses, unless the slide and frame originally do not belong together. But why should the slide of a Walther pistol have been tested in Munich? This also suggests that the signs on the right side of the slide have something to do with Munich, or at least Bavaria, but are not proof marks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Therefore I assume that the markings on the right side of the slide after the marking eagle over N, i.e. the coat of arms with diamonds and the number 77, have something to do with the Munich police.
It is the proof symbol of the Beschussamt München. See yourself at Ortszeichen deutscher Beschussämter . This is what the seller called the Bavarian Police Property stamp, and this is simply incorrect.

Generally spoken, I see no issue with a pistol having two firing proofs, even if they are within a very close time frame. There are enough reasons why a pistol would need to be reproofed.
 

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Generally spoken, I see no issue with a pistol having two firing proofs, even if they are within a very close time frame. There are enough reasons why a pistol would need to be reproofed.
I'm not an expert on this sort of thing, but I still doubt that there are actually proof marks on the right side of the slide, even though one of them looks like that.
From 1977 onwards, the year of the proof test was always coded, as on the left side of the frame with HH = 77, 1977. Behind the alleged sign of the Munich proof house, however, 77 is a number and not a code. Strange, isn't it?
And what should the number 23 after 77 mean?
And a weapon is tested twice within just one year by two different proof houses? Very strange, isn't it?
The local real experts such as Martin, Dieter or Absalom should comment on this matter once.
 

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Great information....and here's the 'full' English translation by 'google translator'. 😂

Since you come from Austria, I will answer you in German.

Until almost three years ago I owned the same P38k with two barrels, bought in 1987 from the German hunting and weapons store Frankonia. At that time I found out that the P38k was originally intended for export to Italy, recognizable as your P38k by the CAT 2401 marking and the 7.65 Para caliber. Since this export did not take place, Walther equipped such "leftover" P38k with an additional barrel in 9 mm Luger for better sales in Germany. The 9mm barrel was not originally part of the weapon but was added later by Walther. At least that's how it was reported to me at Frankonia.

Back then I came across this P38k with two runs barrels through advertisements from Frankonia in the German weapons magazine "Deutsches Waffenjournal". There these P38k were specifically advertised by Frankonia.

I hope I was able to give you some more information about your P38k.
Thanks for doing this man..
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I'm not an expert on this sort of thing, but I still doubt that there are actually proof marks on the right side of the slide, even though one of them looks like that.
From 1977 onwards, the year of the proof test was always coded, as on the left side of the frame with HH = 77, 1977. Behind the alleged sign of the Munich proof house, however, 77 is a number and not a code. Strange, isn't it?
And what should the number 23 after 77 mean?
And a weapon is tested twice within just one year by two different proof houses? Very strange, isn't it?
No one in Europe would fake a proof stamp since this would be the same crime as to fake a passport - also this would not add any value, so doesn't make any sense at all to do a "fake proof". And I see no reason why to fake a proof stamp in the US. There are enough reasons for a weapon to be proofed twice, even within a year. A major repair would be one reason. I have a rifle which has three firing proofs, all from the same proof house, two within one year (original proof, proof when barrel was changed two years later and the same year another proof when the new barrel was threaded).
 

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If I would be asked: The gun was originally proofed in Ulm (1977), a significant part (barrel or slide) was changed and the gun was reproofed (acc. to German law) in Munich.
 

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If I would be asked: The gun was originally proofed in Ulm (1977), a significant part (barrel or slide) was changed and the gun was reproofed (acc. to German law) in Munich.
Many thanks for your opinion.
But I am surprised that the year of the proof test in Munich is in a coat of arms. So far, I only know the years of the proof test as two-digit numbers without any border.
But it's always good to learn something new. :)
 
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