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Discussion Starter #1
Hey - has anyone bought anything from here:

Kaehny

and are any of these items "controlled" ? (specifically the diff colored grips?)

on a parts schematic I am looking at, it lists the "grips" as the  receiver.  The camo looks cool, but not worth hard time for illegal importation!

Next - has anyone bought any of these grips and installed them? I'm looking at a schematic, and while not anywhere near as complex as my P7M8, there are still a lot of parts and springs...

Lastly, does anyone know if the two sized backstraps are included with these grips?

Thanks in advance - great board for a great looking gun!
 

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The grip is classified as the receiver by the BATF. It can't be legally sold to an individual without it going through an FFL and filling out a 4473 form. I don't believe the side plates are classified as the "firearm" but why the heck would anyone want to buy those anyway?

Some of the other spare parts he sells could be useful, but "technically" you are supposed to fill out a Form 6 import form for the "legal" importation of any parts of $75. Heck, I know of a guy that bought a Glock 28 (Illegal to import into the USA) from him, it got seized by Customs and he was fortunate enough that they actually contacted him and asked him what he wanted them to do with it. His options were to return it to sender or have it destroyed. He returned it to Kaehny. Then he sent an FFL to Kaehny and had him re-ship it to the FFL dealer. Customs ACTUALLY let it get through to the FFL dealer and then the guy took possession of it after filling out the 4473 form. Didn't ever have to fill out a Form 6. So even the BATF doesn't follow all of their rules.


Not to say that that is actually done by most people, but that's the law. I'm not one to agree with all of these laws, but I try to follow the 20,000 gun laws on the books as best I can


FYI, Kaehny has been banned from the Walther Forums for his continued refusal to put a warning in his posts that "most" of what he sells is not legal for importation into the USA, or that at least you have to fill out a Form 6 and go through an FFL to import his guns and "receivers". Heck, his prices aren't anything to write home about anyway.

Regards,
James
 

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BS on the Grip part.. I bought a Green P22 frame from him direct WITH OUT BATF.. The Serial number can be removed and place on the new frame ....

I want to see your proof or letter that the New grip/frame is illegal to purchase direct? It HAS NO serial NUMBER .


I have purchased form him on several occasions many things including magazines. With out a hitch. He is a nice person to do business with
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I want to see your proof or letter that the New grip/frame is illegal to purchase direct? It HAS NO serial NUMBER
You are correct. The grip/frame of the P22 has no serial number - the way he sells them. If you look at the picture of the right side of the frame in this picture: P22 grip/frame for sale you will see on the right side of the frame the cutout for the serial number plate.

Now, you see this other part that he sells:
P22 "Sideplate". See the raised portion on the right side of the "sideplate" where it fits through the cutout in the grip/frame? That's where the S/N goes.

Now, as far as legality goes, the BATF considers the receiver of a pistol to be the "grip".

(A6) Does the GCA control the sale of firearms parts? [Back]

No, except that frames or receivers of firearms are "firearms" as defined in the law and subject to the same controls as complete firearms. Silencer parts are also firearms under the GCA, as well as under the National Firearms Act (NFA). Certain machinegun parts, such as conversion parts or kits, are also subject to the NFA.

From the The Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618 § 921. Definitions:
(3) The term "firearm" means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; © any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

Now, is the P22 grip/frame a "firearm"? Interesting question. Since you already purchased one from him, why don't you write your local BATF office and ask them if it's legal.

I may do so myself and I'll let you know what I find out.

Regards,
James
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Not that it matters a hill of beans, but I did buy a grip from Kaehny, received EXCELLENT service, and will buy from them again.

It will be interesting to see where the dust settles re: whether the grip is an ATF regulated part or not...

I was under the impression that all controlled parts had to be serialized... and that in the U.S. that PRIMARILY is the fire control portion of the weapon (the lower of an AR, or receiver/grip of most polymer pistols)

(Like the receiver of an H&K USP, where, unlike the P22, key mechanical features are embedded.  With the P22, the "guts", including trigger, sear, etc all pop out as a unit!)

I was also under the impression that serial #'s were placed on other pieces of handguns because other countries regulate other/additional parts - like barrels, slides, etc.

Oh well.  My camo P22 grip looks really nice!

Gotta go now - someone's banging on the front door in a ninja mask!

 

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According to the ATF the frame or receiver is the controlled part of the weapon. It makes no difference to the ATF if there is a serial number affixed to the frame or receiver or not for them to make that consideration. If they found out, they will insist that there be one.

You can call it whatever you like, and so can Kaehny but the ATF calls it a receiver, with or without the fire control group.

Try buying a stripped lower AR or upper FAL through a dealer or over the internet. You will fill out a 4473 just as if it was a complete rifle or complete lower with the fire control group.

The ATF regulates serial numbering of frames. No one in Europe regulates serial numbering of frames or other parts if they are sold as separate units.

Threaded barrels from Earl's have no serial numbers just as the frames that Kaehny is selling have no serial numbers. The difference is, the US Government requires the serial number on the frame whether it is sold as an individual part or a complete weapon. It is not required until it hits these shores. The ATF has no jurisdiction over anyone else's business overseas. After you receive it, you better get a serial number on the frame. It has been required on weapons manufactured since '68.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]no p22 has a serial # on the frame...
Well, I guess that depends on how the ATF defines "frame"
But we'll leave it at that until I hear back from the ATF.

But on a lighter note
, so how easy is it to change the plastic grip housing on the P22? Is it just simply a matter of punching out some pins and removing the side-plates and trigger assembly?

Regards,
James
 

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Discussion Starter #10
extremely easy...

after removing magazine, slide and barrel, tap out the two roll pins closest to the top of the grip.

It takes a little wiggling, but the entire guts of the gun come out. Trigger, sideplates, everything.  No metal is left in the grip at all.

The only trick in reassembly is the slide release. When assembled, it is pinched between the side plate assembly and the grip, with a tiny tiny spring between the side plate and the slide release.  Here's what I did to reassemble with as little cursing as possible:

1) lay the receiver assembly flat on your bench, with the pointing to your left (the machined spring indent should now be on the "top".
2) place the spring in the indent. the straight part will lay along the top of the indent, and the "leg" of the spring will be pointing up.
3) slowly place the slide release arm on the pivot, and **gently** pivot the whole assembly until the leg of the spring catches in the small hole in the slide release.
4) gently holding the slide release arm against the receiver assembly, continue pivoting up until it fits into place.
5) holding the pieces together, fit them into your new grip.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (encorick @ Oct. 18 2003,10:25)]no p22 has a serial # on the frame...
Well, every P22 that I've sold through our store has a serial number plate on the right side of the frame.

The ATF requires it for importation to the U.S.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Disassemble ANY P22 and you'll see that the serial # is truly on the side plate, NOT on the grip.

The grip has a little window that shows the side of the side plate.

The part with the serial # is actually # 3 on the schematics,  "sideplate, right", part #  267 04 53

p22 schematics

see P14

That's the point in the debate - is the "grip" ATF controlled? I say no, since the side plate bears the serial number and houses the firing mechanism.  The grip in itself could not be used as a weapon. My biggest concern is that the "grip" is called the "receiver" in the schematics...
 

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Your talking semantics. Regardless of how the serial number is attached, imprinted, roll-marked on, it is still there affixed to the frame of the P22 as required by U.S. law.

A stripped lower reciever for an AR would not be considered a weapon either, but just try buying one without the 4473.

The frame of the P22 will still be considered the receiver by the ATF for importation and transfer purposes regardless of whether or not the serial number is attached directly to the "frame" or a provision has been made to allow the display of the serial number in countries that require it.

It also makes no difference if the fire control unit is not installed. The frame is made to allow the installation of the fire control parts to allow the weapon to function as a receiver.

It is still a receiver by ATF definition.
 

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How do you account for rifles built the same way? I personally wont get in a pissing match with you or anybody else.. But common sense tell me that bolt action rifles the M1 carbine and others have "dead" stocks and the guts are the ones that have serial numbers....So for me the P22 is no dif. than any of those. Otherwise logically speaking a wood or plastic stock would have to be numbered too if that statement were true.....which it is not.......

So we have a P22 with internal that can be Pinned in to a stock just like many other older and NEWER weapons.regardless of pistol or rifle..The internals trigger mech is serial numbered.

The logic with some theorys is flawed. and over come by just common sense.
.
 

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Who ever said the ATF had any of that?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Herr Walther - you got it right!

Common sense (unlike our tax dollars) is probably in short supply @ the ATF!


Despite our differences in opinion re: the nature of what's 'controlled' in a P22, it's good to see we agree on other matters!

Although I'm new to this board, I already feel @ home!
 

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That thread is from 2003 (talk about a zombie). :D It's as likely that everyone involved has gone to that great gunshop in the sky as it is that we'd be able to track down any resolution on the issue.
 
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